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genuine_article_comics Posts: 44
7/20/2016
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I believe there should be a consensus within the comic book collecting community of what the money book should be regarding 1st appearances and cameos.
I know this is very difficult to do but the discrepancies are huge in what books command big(ger) money.
Hulk 180 vs. Hulk 181
X-men 266 vs. x-men annual 14
Jimmy Olsen 134 vs Forever People 1
......on and on and on.
How and why do some books seem to get it right in terms of correct value placement and others seemingly get it totally wrong?
Your thoughts please.....
edited by genuine_article_comics on 7/20/2016
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robotcat Posts: 54
7/20/2016
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genuine_article_comics wrote:
I believe there should be a consensus within the comic book collecting community of what the money book should be regarding 1st appearances and cameos.
Money book?
Your statement is flawed. With your examples below, I take that you mean 1st appearance cameos and 1st full appearances.
genuine_article_comics wrote:
I know this is very difficult to do but the discrepancies are huge in what books command big(ger) money.
Hulk 180 vs. Hulk 181
X-men 266 vs. x-men annual 14
Jimmy Olsen 134 vs Forever People 1
First off, demand is always the key determinant in price.
In Hulk 180 Wolverine is only on 1 panel of the last page, so that's definitely a cameo.
There's a bigger difference with Gambit's 1st appearance cameo. He's not introduced, and he doesn't even have a line(pretty sure). He's just standing there. I think in only the one panel.(It doesn't even seem like it should qualify as a cameo). His 1AC has more to do with a quirk of the publication dates. The story #266 was obviously written and drawn before the annual, but it was published after. Because of this, there has been no great demand for the annual.
Darkseid is just a talking head on a TV screen in SPJO #134, so you'd think the values would be similar(in ratio) to that of Wolverine. (My copy of the latter is in much better condition than my copy of the former. So I'd be fine with that. #humblebrag) Supply could be the main factor. Forever People #1 probably had a much bigger print run than SPJO. Also, he's only on 4 pages of FP#1, so he's not the crux of the story, but I guess it's long enough to qualify for more than a cameo.
Also, Darkseid's 2nd appearance was in SPJO #135, which is a larger cameo than his first. I'm surprised its NM value is only $55. Must be lack of knowledge of this, that has kept the price where it is.
genuine_article_comics wrote:
How and why do some books seem to get it right in terms of correct value placement and others seemingly get it totally wrong?
Of which books do you speak? And how do you mean 'get it wrong'?
edited by robotcat on 7/20/2016
edited by robotcat on 7/20/2016
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aarondawe Posts: 158
7/21/2016
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'We' don't get to determine which books are more valuable. The market does that. That's why I always get a chuckle out of those blogs with the 'what's hot' push for obscure 'hot' books. If it's easy to find and people aren't buying it, it's not going to go up in value.
If you want to change how people perceive these, then you will need to convince a large number of people to throw down more money for a copy of Incredible Hulk 180 (as an example), than they currently would for the same condition 181. Then people would see it as more valuable. Wishing won't make it so.
As an aside, my older Overstreet guides have 180 as more valuable than 181. I think this is evidence that people only wish to pay more for the first full issue of the character, even if it's not his true 'first' appearance.
Aaron
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Oxbladder Posts: 487
7/24/2016
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aarondawe wrote:
As an aside, my older Overstreet guides have 180 as more valuable than 181. I think this is evidence that people only wish to pay more for the first full issue of the character, even if it's not his true 'first' appearance.
Aaron
Except that is not true in every case. See X-23 #1 Dell'Otto Variant, SPJO #134, etc.
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genuine_article_comics Posts: 44
7/24/2016
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Oxbladder wrote:
aarondawe wrote:
As an aside, my older Overstreet guides have 180 as more valuable than 181. I think this is evidence that people only wish to pay more for the first full issue of the character, even if it's not his true 'first' appearance.
Aaron
Except that is not true in every case. See X-23 #1 Dell'Otto Variant, SPJO #134, etc.
And that's the crux of this thread. I've posted this topic before the crash and thought I'd put it back up. The logic seems to apply to some books but not all and I don't understand why. Case in point the books Oxbladder mentioned...and there are more examples.
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robotcat Posts: 54
7/25/2016
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genuine_article_comics wrote:
Oxbladder wrote:
aarondawe wrote:
As an aside, my older Overstreet guides have 180 as more valuable than 181. I think this is evidence that people only wish to pay more for the first full issue of the character, even if it's not his true 'first' appearance.
Aaron
Except that is not true in every case. See X-23 #1 Dell'Otto Variant, SPJO #134, etc.
And that's the crux of this thread. I've posted this topic before the crash and thought I'd put it back up. The logic seems to apply to some books but not all and I don't understand why. Case in point the books Oxbladder mentioned...and there are more examples.
I'm not familiar NYX #3. Does X-23 only make a cameo in that? What about her appearance in NYX #4?
[current values: NYX #3 - $430 | #4 - $34 | X-23 #1B(1:25) - $250]
That being said, I would still assume both of those examples just go back to supply and demand.
RE: SPJO #134 - In case you've forgotten(and shame on you if you have), Kirby was quite popular, and in the 1970s his new books were heavily Printed, Promoted, and Preserved(This is the PPP not to be confused with the PPR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf7eKXKmi24). SPJO was written and drawn by Kirby, but was really very popular at the time? Probably not. It was a secondary Superman title, that had most likely seen its heyday 10 years prior.
[I still think SPJO #135 is undervalued. If you can find a copy on the cheap, you may want to snag one. It has the first real look at Darkseid plus Kirby story/art and a cover by Neal Adams.]
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Oxbladder Posts: 487
7/26/2016
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In the case of NYX #3 it is more or less a cameo. I can't remember exactly but I believe there are more than a few panel with Laura Kinney in them. I might put it more in a cameo camp but you will get no argument from me that it is her first appearance. I put a bit of a trick in my response with the X-23 #1 Dell'Otto in that it is not the next appearance of X-23 it is just a book that came much later that is worth way more than the first appearance ($850 for a NYX #3 and $1200 for an X-23 #1 Dell'Otto).
No argument again that SPJO #134 is the first Darseid, lame as it may be. Cameo for sure. However, there is also no mistaking that it realizes more than the first full appearance.
Honestly? I don't really care which is worth more I just believe we should be more clear which is a first appearance and which are not. Whether it is full or cameo I think that it should be "first appearance" with no designation of cameo or full. If the first appearance was a cameo then the first full appearance of that character should be "first full story with...". Splitting hairs for sure and I am sure you will still get some valued higher than other like TIH 181 and SPJO #134. That's fine. From a collector standpoint, when I collect a character I like to get the first appearance even if it was just a cameo (and that is getting popular again with Marvel almost always doing a teaser cameo in one issue and full story in the next) and if you go out and buy TIH 181 you are not getting the first appearance of Wolverine.
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colbalt91 Posts: 298
8/12/2016
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I noticed in our recent price change column that Justice League #40 has gone up in value due to it supposedly being the first appearance of Grail, Darkseid's daughter. Yet, I remember it coming out the Wednesday after Free Comic Book Day a couple of years ago. The significance of this being that DC had released a preview book for free comic book day that had four or five pages of upcoming books and in that book it had four or five pages of Grail being born and the book showed her. So that free book is actually her first appearance by about three or four days. I remember that free book causing havoc among the speculators at the time.
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Oxbladder Posts: 487
8/12/2016
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aarondawe wrote:
'We' don't get to determine which books are more valuable. The market does that. That's why I always get a chuckle out of those blogs with the 'what's hot' push for obscure 'hot' books. If it's easy to find and people aren't buying it, it's not going to go up in value.
'We' are collectors/readers so unless you are downloading everything for free 'we' are the market. BTW there are lots of easy to find expensive books, such as Incredible Hulk #181. So "easy" or "hard" to find really isn't a factor as much as does the number of copies out there meet demand? Sometime super rare books rarely go up by much if at all because they just never go up for sale or no one is actively hunting them.
If you want to change how people perceive these, then you will need to convince a large number of people to throw down more money for a copy of Incredible Hulk 180 (as an example), than they currently would for the same condition 181. Then people would see it as more valuable.
You are right about that, but, you would have to agree that, like many other things in the hobby, there is absolutely no consistency in either definitions or how "the market" values these books. More consistency on how we define first appearances would eliminate at least one of the barriers newcomers have in trying to learn the hobby. Frankly, I don't care how the market values the various early appearances I just care that we recognize them consistently. I think a first appearance be it cameo or full be recognized as the first appearance with no designation that it is cameo or full. If the character's first appearance is a cameo then the first full story appearance should be labeled as "first full story".
edited by Oxbladder on 8/12/2016
edited by Oxbladder on 8/12/2016
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Oxbladder Posts: 487
8/12/2016
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colbalt91 wrote:
I noticed in our recent price change column that Justice League #40 has gone up in value due to it supposedly being the first appearance of Grail, Darkseid's daughter. Yet, I remember it coming out the Wednesday after Free Comic Book Day a couple of years ago. The significance of this being that DC had released a preview book for free comic book day that had four or five pages of upcoming books and in that book it had four or five pages of Grail being born and the book showed her. So that free book is actually her first appearance by about three or four days. I remember that free book causing havoc among the speculators at the time.
Yeah, a tough call on that set of books considering it is the same material in both books too. However, since Absolute Vertigo is also a preview and is recognized FA of Preacher, the FCBD issue is, in fact the FA of Grail.
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aarondawe Posts: 158
8/12/2016
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Oxbladder wrote:
aarondawe wrote:
'We' don't get to determine which books are more valuable. The market does that. That's why I always get a chuckle out of those blogs with the 'what's hot' push for obscure 'hot' books. If it's easy to find and people aren't buying it, it's not going to go up in value.
'We' are collectors/readers so unless you are downloading everything for free 'we' are the market. BTW there are lots of easy to find expensive books, such as Incredible Hulk #181. So "easy" or "hard" to find really isn't a factor as much as does the number of copies out there meet demand? Sometime super rare books rarely go up by much if at all because they just never go up for sale or no one is actively hunting them.
If you want to change how people perceive these, then you will need to convince a large number of people to throw down more money for a copy of Incredible Hulk 180 (as an example), than they currently would for the same condition 181. Then people would see it as more valuable.
You are right about that, but, you would have to agree that, like many other things in the hobby, there is absolutely no consistency in either definitions or how "the market" values these books. More consistency on how we define first appearances would eliminate at least one of the barriers newcomers have in trying to learn the hobby. Frankly, I don't care how the market values the various early appearances I just care that we recognize them consistently. I think a first appearance be it cameo or full be recognized as the first appearance with no designation that it is cameo or full. If the character's first appearance is a cameo then the first full story appearance should be labeled as "first full story".
edited by Oxbladder on 8/12/2016
edited by Oxbladder on 8/12/2016
What I was trying to say in my first point above, is that as we can all agree that Wolverine first appeared in IH 180 (as an example of what's being discussed), and that Overstreet used to list it as being more valuable in the guide years ago, but at some point market forces decided that the 181 was the more desirable book to have (so the value of 181 increased to reflect that). 'We' didn't get to decide that, even if factually it doesn't make sense from a logic or character/collector point of view. In this case, it may be because it's a full issue of an early appearance (much like ASM 300), which then leads into your second point about inconsistency, which I agree with, but the market may still determine another issue as more desirable. I don't see Marvel Premiere #19 ever taking over either Hulk issue in value, despite some trying to 'sell it' as the first appearance of Wolverine. Ticks me off, actually, as that's the only MP I need to complete my Iron Fist run and I'm not paying BS speculator prices on that issue.
But as another example (and this goes with my 'what's hot' point), remember when Wizard was pushing two early appearances of 'Venom' (where a hand pushed PP on to a subway track, and off a building)? Even if these are documented early appearances (and I believe the proof is tenuous, at best), I don't think most people are going to accept that these are Venom's first appearance so these will never catch on in the marketplace. ASM 300 also had 3 other things going for it (Venom first full issue, McFarlane, and an anniversary issue).
So, I suspect even if there was consistency in what constitutes a first appearance/cameo, the values may not always reflect that in the marketplace. Who knows though? The value difference between IH 180 and 181 did eventually happen (rightly or wrongly), but it took time. Maybe knowledge can turn this type of thing around eventually.
Aaron
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Oxbladder Posts: 487
8/12/2016
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Michellinie I believe was the one who confirmed that the pushes of PP as early appearances of Venom. Of course not identified so, IMHO, not first appearances. Just like the pounding fist of Doomsday before he was identified.
Like I said I don't care which is more valuable at all. Just how they are identified and that it is done consistently.
edited by Oxbladder on 8/12/2016
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