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Ronbatman Administrator Posts: 2376
2/12/2021
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Obviously, we look at comic book values all the time. I've started to notice some trends so I'm going to throw this out there to our regular forum visitors.
1. Some sellers are pushing the values for 9.8 graded books way up. We are seeing a tremendous rise in that specific grade. We try to throw out the extraordinarily high values but most sites don't. On the Amazing Spiderman issues that we have been working on, our 9.8 is usually lower than other price guides. We believe that they are artificially inflating the market.
2. In the 9.4 grade sometimes the value for raw and graded are the same. Sometimes the raw is higher. Sometimes the graded is higher. There is real value in finding a graded 9.4 in the market today.
3. We have been raising the values on the mid and lower grade books as the top end continues to blow the roof off. So even if the 9.4 raw drops that doesn't mean that your 7.5 dropped in value.
4. We are seriously considering removing the 9.9 and 10 from our price guide since it encourages false value for some collectors. There are so few of these books and their prices vary so dramatically that we believe it hurts us instead of helps us by adding them.
5. We will not be adding any grade for coverless books.
6. Key books continue to rise exponentially faster than regular issues. At some point, the price difference will become ridiculous and collectors will see the value with regular issues or 2nd or 3rd appearances.
7. The market focuses intently on a few books at a time. Other important issues are ignored in the hype train but for smart collectors, there are great values everywhere.
Ron
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+3
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collectibleshop Posts: 2356
2/12/2021
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4. We are seriously considering removing the 9.9 and 10 from our price guide since it encourages false value for some collectors. There are so few of these books and their prices vary so dramatically that we believe it hurts us instead of helps us by adding them.
YAY! A good decision in my opinion, for just the reasons you stated. Newbies seem to come here and only look at the very top grades/prices and not pay attention and think their 'mint' comics are worth that much. I still lobby to drop the graded prices altogether too, unless you get some better info from GPA, as most I ever look at here are either way high or way low (mostly low). Maybe you can hook up with GPA and take their ads and get them to offer some deal for CPG members, and just direct people to them for graded prices. The Valiantfans site posts GPA values for graded Valiants that everyone can see, so they have some ok to do that, but of course GPA isn't going to let you use their data for free for all comics.
I agree with #5 and coverless books. Prices vary too widely, especially on old keys, and I don't think there's that many being sold to get a good handle on them, or an algorithm that would be semi-accurate. The vast majority are worthless anyway.
That's my 2 cents, for tree-fiddy.
edited by collectibleshop on 2/12/2021
edited by ronbatman on 5/10/2021
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BasementComics Posts: 784
2/12/2021
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Are you considering removing the 9.9 and 10 from raw only or from both raw and graded? I know that there are CGC 9.9's (I have one) and 10's out there so I think keeping it for graded would be a good thing; just not raw.
My two cents.
Donald
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rustyauger Posts: 159
2/12/2021
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Why no coverless grade of .3?
edited by rustyauger on 2/12/2021
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glorkar Posts: 576
2/12/2021
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Not that it really effects me, but would there be a way to keep the 9.9, 10.0 and maybe add the .3 (or some 'major damage' grade) but not list prices?
Seems a few people catalog their collections on here so keeping the grade but removing the price would let them keep / add these books to their lists.
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rustyauger Posts: 159
2/14/2021
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collectibleshop wrote:
I agree with #5 and coverless books. Prices vary too widely, especially on old keys, and I don't think there's that many being sold to get a good handle on them, or an algorithm that would be semi-accurate. The vast majority are worthless anyway.
edited by collectibleshop on 2/12/2021
I disagree. Coverless comics are a serious branch of the hobby, especially when we are talking about Golden Age books or Silver Age keys that are too expensive to own in Good or better. It is not hard to price them as .3. The algorithm is 15% of the value of a 2.0 of the same issue. They will still likely be undervalued as most of the low grade keys and Golden Age books are on this site but at least we will be able to enter them correctly.
It seems like the decisions are being made by people who don't collect Golden Age so they don't appreciate the value of coverless comics from that era. Even a Silver Age book like Detective Comics 225 will sell for $1000 coverless.
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BasementComics Posts: 784
2/14/2021
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rustyauger wrote:
collectibleshop wrote:
I agree with #5 and coverless books. Prices vary too widely, especially on old keys, and I don't think there's that many being sold to get a good handle on them, or an algorithm that would be semi-accurate. The vast majority are worthless anyway.
edited by collectibleshop on 2/12/2021
I disagree. Coverless comics are a serious branch of the hobby, especially when we are talking about Golden Age books or Silver Age keys that are too expensive to own in Good or better. It is not hard to price them as .3. The algorithm is 15% of the value of a 2.0 of the same issue. They will still likely be undervalued as most of the low grade keys and Golden Age books are on this site but at least we will be able to enter them correctly.
It seems like the decisions are being made by people who don't collect Golden Age so they don't appreciate the value of coverless comics from that era. Even a Silver Age book like Detective Comics 225 will sell for $1000 coverless.
I totally agree about coverless and the values they bring in. There are lots of coverless books being sold at way above "guide" price. I may be done collecting Golden Age Batman and Detective because I can't afford them anymore. If CPG and others don't account for those, we may be reliant on ebay to become our "price guide" on those books (yes, I know ebay is not a price guide)
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collectibleshop Posts: 2356
2/14/2021
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Note I said 'the vast majority are worthless', not all. In another thread I said 'generally, except for key older issues'. Which is true. I haven't dealt in coverless comics, but I see mentions of sales of IMPORTANT issues on the CGC forum and other places, so I know SOME sell for well over what any guide might list them for. And who made the algorithm of 15% of the 2.0 value? Overstreet (don't have one to check)? But then you state they'll still be undervalued for gold/silver anyway, so again, prices vary widely and are harder to come by, so CPG elected not to bother. Maybe down the road if enough coverless comics sell for something worthwhile, they'll start listing them, it maybe limit it to say pre-1965 comics over a certain value. Otherwise, yeah, you'll have to use the questionable sales on that auction site and other auctions the really valuable ones may turn up on. I can't see that many collectors needing a .3 grade here to add coverless comics to their long boxes for CPG to fool with that, and so few members use the forums it'd be hard to get a poll done with much useful info. You can make you own list on your own computer too, if you don't have thousands of coverless comics to type in. That's life with comics and price guides, can't please everyone.
edited by collectibleshop on 2/14/2021
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rustyauger Posts: 159
2/14/2021
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collectibleshop wrote:
And who made the algorithm of 15% of the 2.0 value?
edited by collectibleshop on 2/14/2021
If you divide 2.0 by .3 you get 15%.
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collectibleshop Posts: 2356
2/14/2021
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rustyauger wrote:
collectibleshop wrote:
And who made the algorithm of 15% of the 2.0 value?
If you divide 2.0 by .3 you get 15%.
well, ok, but all depends on the issue. I found where CBCS back in 2017 adding coverless grades of .3 and .1, but the couple threads I read didn't make any corresponding percentage of value guesses. Here's what CBCS said when they announced it:
"INC 0.3:
This is an incomplete comic book. We will follow the CBCS definitions for this grade, which distills down to this: the only comic that can get this grade is a coverless but otherwise complete book, or a lone cover. Yes, we find that definition a little odd too but at least it's clear.
Key Note: Any coverless but otherwise complete book automatically gets assigned this grade. While most comics in this grade will have almost no value, a coverless copy of a key book may command very high prices. One reason: a collector may have a cover for that book, and will "marry" the cover to the coverless copy. Example sale: a CBCS INC 0.3 copy of Action Comics 1 sold for $65,725.00 in late 2016.
INC 0.1:
This comic book is coverless as well as having an incomplete interior. In fact, it may be only a single page from a book. Why would anybody care? See Key Note from INC 0.3."
So agrees with both things I've said---most coverless comics are worthless, but keys of high value books can fetch some ok dough. The point of CPG not bothering with those grades is most likely due to the VERY small group of collectors who 'collect' them, and the lack of regular sales to judge value on the very few worthwhile coverless issues, regardless if that's a few thousand Gold & Silver age comics. They have better things to spend their time on that affect the majority of members. Ronbatman may be able to tell more about their decision/reasoning. Collect what you like, keep track of it how you can, and have fun.
edited by collectibleshop on 2/14/2021
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Draven68 Posts: 136
2/14/2021
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Maybe just remove the Raw 9.9 and 10 prices? I have attached some of the CGC graded 9.9's and 10 I own for verification
edited by Draven68 on 2/14/2021
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Ronbatman Administrator Posts: 2376
2/15/2021
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We are not saying that graded 9.9 and 10 don't exist. We are saying that we are seriously thinking about removing them. Now we would add them for specific requests. There are certain books like Batman Damned that can grade a 10. However, the vast, vast majority of comics, well over a million of the books we have on the site don't have any 9.9's or 10's. The pricing for them is difficult because they rarely sell and the numbers are so astronomical that it makes you wonder if it's a real sale or a fake to inflate the price. They are super rare. We list them like they are commonplace and that's why we would remove them.
The coverless books have value to some people especially key Golden and Silver age books but we aren't going to add them. They have always existed in the hobby but no one lists them. In my personal opinion, I think CBCS added it to differentiate itself from CGC, which is totally fine. Their business strategy doesn't force us to add it because they created a new grade. I know this is disappointing to some but we cannot satisfy everyone.
Regarding the algorithm discussion, we are constantly changing things and that includes pricing structures. Take a look at Amazing Spiderman 129
https://comicspriceguide.com/titles/amazing-spider-man-the/129/yluqo
R
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Draven68 Posts: 136
2/15/2021
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Ron, I agree with all you had to say about the 9.9 and 10's. I may be in the minority with this but I don't see a reason why you wouldn't just remove those from the "raw" portion of those values and keep the ones for graded (if possible). I've taken the time to catalog all my graded comics (to the point of adding the serial numbers) on your site and also use it as reference for insurance. I hope you take my thoughts into consideration and we can find a happy medium.
If you do decide to go the route of removing them all, please let me know what I can do to have mine added back in.
Thanks for all you do
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lokyel Posts: 430
2/15/2021
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Ronbatman wrote:
We are not saying that graded 9.9 and 10 don't exist. We are saying that we are seriously thinking about removing them. Now we would add them for specific requests. There are certain books like Batman Damned that can grade a 10. However, the vast, vast majority of comics, well over a million of the books we have on the site don't have any 9.9's or 10's. The pricing for them is difficult because they rarely sell and the numbers are so astronomical that it makes you wonder if it's a real sale or a fake to inflate the price. They are super rare. We list them like they are commonplace and that's why we would remove them.
The coverless books have value to some people especially key Golden and Silver age books but we aren't going to add them. They have always existed in the hobby but no one lists them. In my personal opinion, I think CBCS added it to differentiate itself from CGC, which is totally fine. Their business strategy doesn't force us to add it because they created a new grade. I know this is disappointing to some but we cannot satisfy everyone.
Regarding the algorithm discussion, we are constantly changing things and that includes pricing structures. Take a look at Amazing Spiderman 129
https://comicspriceguide.com/titles/amazing-spider-man-the/129/yluqo
R
what if you add in a button like the graded and the auto ones for the coverless thus letting us to add coverless in to our collection but asign it a $0 value or a % of the lowest value for now
GRADED
YES
NO
AUTOGRAPHED
YES
NO
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rustyauger Posts: 159
2/15/2021
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https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=coverless+comics&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1&_sop=16
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Ronbatman Administrator Posts: 2376
2/16/2021
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Just so all of you know. We are very reluctant to make big changes without tons of advanced work. Every change we make affects someone's collection. So if we decide to remove the majority of 9.9 and 10.0 we will filter through the graded 9.9 and 10 that are in someone's collection. Those will remain in place so there is no worry of losing issues. If you have a raw 10 or 9.9 those would be bumped down to a 9.8. To say it again, we are seriously thinking about it not 100% doing it.
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Konungrcomics Posts: 62
2/19/2021
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Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks aren't updating the condition from our default of 9.4 to their Titles prior to sales. More then once I have purchased a title that was listed as a 9.4 only to receive a 7.0. Now on the other hand I know most of us are not professional graders, as I myself am not. However when I have a number of 9.4's and 7.0's from CGC I have learned a lot through the notes. Also i understand we have many folks with thousands of titles and its a lot to track, but at least verify when you receive an offer that the title is with in range of your posted grade.
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taskmaster Posts: 247
2/20/2021
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Konungrcomics wrote:
Another trend I've noticed is a lot of folks aren't updating the condition from our default of 9.4 to their Titles prior to sales. More then once I have purchased a title that was listed as a 9.4 only to receive a 7.0. Now on the other hand I know most of us are not professional graders, as I myself am not. However when I have a number of 9.4's and 7.0's from CGC I have learned a lot through the notes. Also i understand we have many folks with thousands of titles and its a lot to track, but at least verify when you receive an offer that the title is with in range of your posted grade.
That's why I have been saying for awhile...And don't get mad when someone mentions it to you that is not 9.4
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kds_comics Posts: 652
5/10/2021
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Some thick spine issues are legitimate 9.9 and 10.0 graded comics. I have had one of each grade for Batman Damned.
That said I generally agree. I never put a raw book over 9.6 and very rarely list as 9.6. Almost always at 9.4 raw.
Agree there is no reason to list a 9.8 or greater raw grade and seldom a reason to list a graded value over 9.8
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BasementComics Posts: 784
5/10/2021
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kds_comics wrote:
Some thick spine issues are legitimate 9.9 and 10.0 graded comics. I have had one of each grade for Batman Damned.
That said I generally agree. I never put a raw book over 9.6 and very rarely list as 9.6. Almost always at 9.4 raw.
Agree there is no reason to list a 9.8 or greater raw grade and seldom a reason to list a graded value over 9.8
Agreed
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