CGC vs PGX..... graded comics..?


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By dirtybird78 - 2 Years Ago
it seem cgc is more trusted than pgx on grading.. does anyone know why??
By culmant - 2 Years Ago
People trust CGC more the PGX because CGC was the first comic grading company and they had a large following of collectors who knew the CGC founders. CGC also had the Wizard Magazine account and did a lot of promotions through them and with them. PGX is also not as visible at cons as CGC.

PGX has since become synonyms with great product, value and customer service. I have used both but lean towards PGX. I have heard people say they send newer books to PGX and older more valuable books to CGC. I have also heard people say that PGX grades harder and have the superior holder.

Lets not forget that there was a 3rd grading company out of Texas called ACE Grading but they tanked early on while the other 2 continued on strong. PGX is committed to being a great company. Talk to the folks at PGX you will get that since from all of them.

Now its down to choice. Both have graded major KEY books and both have a major following. What do you want?
By tjanse - 2 Years Ago
Here is some reading pgx releated.

http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/
By dirtybird78 - 2 Years Ago
wow thanks for the info.. GREAT LINK.. I would advise everyone check this out before buying any graded comics.. it makes me want to go inspect mine a little closer.. infact i think i will go do that now...
By tjanse - 2 Years Ago
dirtybird78 (3/21/2012)
wow thanks for the info.. GREAT LINK.. I would advise everyone check this out before buying any graded comics.. it makes me want to go inspect mine a little closer.. infact i think i will go do that now...


Ye just passing on the info that was passed onto me a long time ago
By expander - 2 Years Ago
I own only two slabbed books both are CGC, and after reading the info in the link above i don't know if i will be trying out any pgx's.

I was going to at one point but just decided on the cgc's instead (to be honest it was an aesthetic choice i liked the design of the label on cgc better and liked the way the grade stands out)
By Jetfire426 - 2 Years Ago
i would never buy a PGX book
By tjanse - 2 Years Ago
I bought a asm 400 pgx for fun it was like $5. ANd big diff in grading thats forsure.
By pmadreenter - 2 Years Ago
I think it's very interesting that the only post in this thread that praises PGX came from a poster who visited the site one time and posted once.
By tjanse - 2 Years Ago
Sorry i did have one praise the atfer craked the pgx case open taped it up threw it in the air and it made it great target pracite for two shots
By culmant - 2 Years Ago
I have read all the postings on this site and have come to the realization that PGX has done something to people on a personal level. The link about the trimmed books is old and has been dealt with. Just for the record people on the CGC boards have also found the same mistakes CGC made in their first years of business.

I do not doubt that PGX is working hard, dare I say harder than CGC, to make a solid case and reputation for itself. But it still feels that people are hating PGX on a personal level. Like the girl that turned them down for prom. Yes, collectors are some of the craziest people on the planet, me included, but really this is the best thing you could come up with in 2012.
There is a company called Beckett. You know the one that's a world leader in card grading and price guides. Read about their mistakes and their success.

I posted a reply to the question and crazy people went crazy and PGX books are still being sold and will for a very long time in every arena. I understand that people prefer CGC I can live with that, so live with the fact that people who read this will also prefer PGX and will even switch.

To the person who said I only visited the site once. I have a very busy life and wonderful family. The message boards are not my life but a quick minute within it.

Keep collecting
By clovis5000 - 2 Years Ago
culmant (4/7/2012)
I have read all the postings on this site and have come to the realization that PGX has done something to people on a personal level. The link about the trimmed books is old and has been dealt with. Just for the record people on the CGC boards have also found the same mistakes CGC made in their first years of business.

I do not doubt that PGX is working hard, dare I say harder than CGC, to make a solid case and reputation for itself. But it still feels that people are hating PGX on a personal level. Like the girl that turned them down for prom. Yes, collectors are some of the craziest people on the planet, me included, but really this is the best thing you could come up with in 2012.
There is a company called Beckett. You know the one that's a world leader in card grading and price guides. Read about their mistakes and their success.

I posted a reply to the question and crazy people went crazy and PGX books are still being sold and will for a very long time in every arena. I understand that people prefer CGC I can live with that, so live with the fact that people who read this will also prefer PGX and will even switch.

To the person who said I only visited the site once. I have a very busy life and wonderful family. The message boards are not my life but a quick minute within it.

Keep collecting


So, how long have you worked for PGX?
By readercopy - 2 Years Ago
I actually would like to know more about PGX. And I do feel that link is old about PGX. I have only one graded book and it is from CGC. So I really have no preference, but I do believe it is a good thing for the market to have 2 competing companies as long as their grading criteria is on par with each other. I feel having two separate entities only helps us the consumer, ie protects us from higher prices, more options, and faster service, (as we all know comic grading is not a fast process) and better product (I have heard that PGX's cases are actually superior from some sellers even though their label may not be as attractive. So, overall I would encourage a viable second grading company to compete and excel along side CGC, as long as the service is viable.

Happy Hunting!
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
Overgrading and/or undergrading aside, it seems to me that the difference in problems that some collectors have with PGX when compared to the problems with CGC is that PGX's issues seem to be an internal problem where as CGC's seem to be external.
What I mean is PGX (or CGG, or whatever else they might have been called at the time) had employees that were cheating, stealing, and using the business in very unscrupulous ways. CGC's issues were people (customers) submitting books purposely trying to beat the system (microtrimming, etc.). Customers, from what I've heard, CGC have since banned and are now using the services of PGX.

The bottom line for me with PGX, after all I've seen and read, is that I cannot believe that comic book collectors continue to throw money at a company that has been known to be harmful, to both other collectors and the comic book collecting community in whole, on so many levels.
By culmant - 2 Years Ago
I don't work for PGX. I am a teacher. I simply use logic and an open mind.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
culmant (4/7/2012)
I have read all the postings on this site and have come to the realization that PGX has done something to people on a personal level. The link about the trimmed books is old and has been dealt with. Just for the record people on the CGC boards have also found the same mistakes CGC made in their first years of business.


Sorry no. PGX has never dealt with their issues. Never. They have admitted they have made mistakes and such but have never done anything at all to prove they have cleaned up their act. They still make labeling errors, vastly over-grade lower and mid grade books, etc. The worst thing is that they had people work for them in the past that had lots of suggestions on how to make their business more respectable and simply brushed it all off. Whenever, Daniel Patterson was put in a position where he blatantly lied he would go into complete silence.

Really it is all about how they have handled and dealt with their errors that has killed them. They have thrown respectability and their formers assistants under the bus. Not only that but have also never even met their financial obligations to people they hired to work for them.

They continue to have certain customers that continually pass bogus crap through and one even used to work for them. It is not like it is simply these guys are trying to job the system there are such blatant "errors" that PGX would have to be complicit in either gross ignorance or are in on the fraud

I do not doubt that PGX is working hard, dare I say harder than CGC, to make a solid case and reputation for itself. But it still feels that people are hating PGX on a personal level. Like the girl that turned them down for prom. Yes, collectors are some of the craziest people on the planet, me included, but really this is the best thing you could come up with in 2012.There is a company called Beckett. You know the one that's a world leader in card grading and price guides. Read about their mistakes and their success.


Seriously? PGX hasn't done fork all to clean-up their reputation, ever. They simply keep radio silence and let all the brouhaha pass over because in the end they know that their Walmart priced service will attract attention and most of those people are completely ignorant of their history and the market or they simply don't give a rat's bottom end.

You are right though that CGC hasn't done much over the year's either. Honestly? Neither of these companies are very good at quality assurance and 99.9% of the people that buy the services or the books on the market know this or care because they have little to know clue about quality assurance systems. What is really bad is that huge amount s of money rest on the thinnest of ledges an even a minor shove from a controversy could level the CGC castle completely and devastate the entire market. Trust me one day this shove will come because CGC was built on a poorly constructed foundation.

I posted a reply to the question and crazy people went crazy and PGX books are still being sold and will for a very long time in every arena. I understand that people prefer CGC I can live with that, so live with the fact that people who read this will also prefer PGX and will even switch.


I won't touch books graded by either. I have bought a few in the past but I won't deal with them any more because I simply refuse to support a two tier system... one that is built on lousy QA foundation. Both are lazy and both care far more about the money surrounding the books themselves than about the books and ethics in the marketplace.
By dirtybird78 - 2 Years Ago
I agree.. Very well said..!!!
By readercopy - 2 Years Ago
I am still on the side that two viable grading sources is better for the comics industry than just one for the points I stated earlier. I wonder and doubt PGX will ever become as popular as CGC but I do hope they become a more reliable source on par with CGC standards, I feel the industry and consumers would only benefit by this.
By quixel - 2 Years Ago
Yes this is long and missing letters as this wireless keyboard is finally dying but oh well such is life!! No i am not going to correct all the letters that messed up or spelling mistypes,Spell check Nazi's are evil!

CGC can go phuck themselves!! I was at megacon few moths ago ad brought books to get graded and also the big problem is my meds i take were switched to ew oes byt he doctor 2 days earlier ad they affected me like crazy I was totally bonkers half awake half asleep ad kew something was way wrong like i was extremely drunk or high or something. I told the CGC guy that i had ever doe this before so he filled out the paperwork? ot sure if that is standard and i had 22 books older then 1980 and 1 newer..eedless to say i should ever have did the one ewer because of all the added costs that a ew sheet extra $5 ad retur shipping of $9 made my modern comic cost me $32...The older comics nothing fancy ad i paid him for everythig with my credit card..It was't til the ext day whe i got home ad of course o longer buzzing or high from the new meds, he charged me $35 per book instead of what the flyer and the webpage says it should have only been $25 per comic ,he put me in a higher tier and since i was out of it i did't complain or even really relize he was screwing me! CGC has ot oe time responded to my emails eve to say F U we do not care that we robbed you of $220 extra overcharge!!! Got the 1980 book back fially ad though o spie creases or aythig it loks like brand new off the shelf somehow it only got a 7.5 for Star Wars #107 the last issue and one that is worth more then others in the line! How can a book with o creases plenty of cover gloss and clean cover and back side no color breaking anything only receive a 7.5? Thiking maybe someoe there did ot like my repeated emails ad punished me for them by giving a low grade!! Side by side with an 8.0 and 8.5 CGC graded book and it looks nicer then both it is at least as nice as the 9.0's i have or 9.2 yet they gave a 7.5 =( is there ay ay to fid out graders notes to find out why they sheet on my comic? Scared now to find out what the other 22 are going to grade now and after spend8ig $800 with $220 they overcharged me,I do not think i will ever use them again as that is piss poor customer service..YES even though i was out of it while i was at the covetio the guy said the 2 tiers for the books is either $18 for modern or $35 for the others,that was the only choices unless the books were of course more valuable... THE GUY LIED AND CGC DOES NOT CARE SO PISS ON THEM! They can easly see that the books i submitted are $150 and less value and the guy put them all down as $300 and lower.. So CGC is not the great company you guys are making them out to be!! Got the rant out of the way ad have to say for them to Never even respond when i set polite and to the point emails with tracking numbers and everythig..PISS POOR
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
quixel (4/8/2012)
Yes this is long and missing letters as this wireless keyboard is finally dying but oh well such is life!! No i am not going to correct all the letters that messed up or spelling mistypes,Spell check Nazi's are evil!

CGC can go phuck themselves!! I was at megacon few moths ago ad brought books to get graded and also the big problem is my meds i take were switched to ew oes byt he doctor 2 days earlier ad they affected me like crazy I was totally bonkers half awake half asleep ad kew something was way wrong like i was extremely drunk or high or something. I told the CGC guy that i had ever doe this before so he filled out the paperwork? ot sure if that is standard and i had 22 books older then 1980 and 1 newer..eedless to say i should ever have did the one ewer because of all the added costs that a ew sheet extra $5 ad retur shipping of $9 made my modern comic cost me $32...The older comics nothing fancy ad i paid him for everythig with my credit card..It was't til the ext day whe i got home ad of course o longer buzzing or high from the new meds, he charged me $35 per book instead of what the flyer and the webpage says it should have only been $25 per comic ,he put me in a higher tier and since i was out of it i did't complain or even really relize he was screwing me! CGC has ot oe time responded to my emails eve to say F U we do not care that we robbed you of $220 extra overcharge!!! Got the 1980 book back fially ad though o spie creases or aythig it loks like brand new off the shelf somehow it only got a 7.5 for Star Wars #107 the last issue and one that is worth more then others in the line! How can a book with o creases plenty of cover gloss and clean cover and back side no color breaking anything only receive a 7.5? Thiking maybe someoe there did ot like my repeated emails ad punished me for them by giving a low grade!! Side by side with an 8.0 and 8.5 CGC graded book and it looks nicer then both it is at least as nice as the 9.0's i have or 9.2 yet they gave a 7.5 =( is there ay ay to fid out graders notes to find out why they sheet on my comic? Scared now to find out what the other 22 are going to grade now and after spend8ig $800 with $220 they overcharged me,I do not think i will ever use them again as that is piss poor customer service..YES even though i was out of it while i was at the covetio the guy said the 2 tiers for the books is either $18 for modern or $35 for the others,that was the only choices unless the books were of course more valuable... THE GUY LIED AND CGC DOES NOT CARE SO PISS ON THEM! They can easly see that the books i submitted are $150 and less value and the guy put them all down as $300 and lower.. So CGC is not the great company you guys are making them out to be!! Got the rant out of the way ad have to say for them to Never even respond when i set polite and to the point emails with tracking numbers and everythig..PISS POOR


Besides the fact that this is probably the greatest post in the history of the internet, I don't believe anyone was making CGC out as a great company, but simply stating that when compared in whole to PGX, they are the better company.
If all things you stated are true, I'm sorry you were taken advantage of and I'm sorry you have had zero luck with customer service. Crying

I'm also sorry that you felt the need to go out in public when you had just switched medications, were feeling drunk, high, bonkers and half awake.

I also see why you believe Spell check Nazis are evil.

Again, best post ever. Cool
By dirtybird78 - 2 Years Ago
THE BEST POST EVER INDEED !!!!!

5 STARS LMAO

Hehe
By STEVEN REX - 2 Years Ago
this is simple for me to awnser i have been seriously disapointed in cgc where i have been very surprised with pgx since mid 2010 pgx comics have been amazing iv bought some on ebay and was astounded on how they look i descided to take my xmen 95,96,99 and ghost rider 1 all pgx 9.0 and send them to cgc seeing they sell for quite more cause supposedlly grade better well when i got the books back from cgcf only x-men 99 was still a 9.0 while ghost rider 1 came back a 9.4 and the other 2 9.2 with xmen 96 coming close to a 9.4 so to me pgx grades much stricter and seem to have fixed there problems and i know alot of people will disagree with me i buy both brands and i do agree that before 2010 pgx was a little of but now they are on track every book i get from pgx since 2010 looks better than cgc in the same grade and most of the time seem to be as good if not better than the grade above it
By STEVEN REX - 2 Years Ago
also to those that look at this and say im to new this is a new account for some reason i cant recieve emails from cbpg on my old email adress
By pmadreenter - 2 Years Ago
STEVEN REX (4/10/2012)
also to those that look at this and say im to new this is a new account for some reason i cant recieve emails from cbpg on my old email adress


Yeah, yeah.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
For the most part people, even critics, have never had issue with PGX's high end grading their issue remains the mid and lower end grading. In such cases they are more often than not a full grade or two HIGH. I have no issue with PGX's high grading but their mid/low grading sucks, their QC still sucks, their restoration checking is sub-par, and they still allow submissions from customers they know are passing off books that are manipulated or counterfeit. Again they have never, EVER addressed this they simply stay quiet and let the hooha blow over.
By pop-art - 2 Years Ago
Hi there, I am new to the board but a long time collector. I have sent comics off to CGC before and was happy with the service, but it was very expensive (my collection is predominately DC and I sent in many silver age which were graded in the 9.2-9.8 range).

I w as surprised at the price I got for them on eBay, and realized that a silver age cgc 9.4 Justice League does not command the same premium as say a similar age Avengers would.

In a cursory scan of prices realized for silver age DC comics on eBay, it seems there is very little difference between cgc and pgx books of a similar grade.

I have another 100 or so books I would like to get graded and was thinking I could save a couple grand up front if I went to PGX as opposed to CGC. The difference between $15 and 35 per book is compelling.

So all past issues aside, does anyone have any opinions or experience on prices realized for high end DC PGX comics?

Thanks.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
The problems with this is that as you go down the grading scale PGX gets worse for grading. That 7.0 PGX may get around the same price but if that PGX book would have been a 7.5-8.0 that could more than cover the cost of the CGC grading. The same could happen with high grade. If you get a 9.2-9.4 from CGC you could very well get a lower grade from PGX missing out on the difference that realized prices for the higher grade will bring. If you are going to get any sort of lower realized price off the hop with PGX what ever their differences in grading are can compound this. If a CGC 9.2 book brings $120 regularly and the similar graded PGX gets $110 you are already half way to the difference but you should keep in mind that that PGX book could well have scored a 9.4 from CGC.
By Kitdog - 2 Years Ago
I will back PGX to a point, and I have been here for quite a while. I have used them. They seem to have good service and their holder seems much better than CGC's holder. I don't go for graded comics I don't really care for them at all. I have used PGX simply for the holder, to display some sketch covers and signed comics I have, as well as just some I want to display. Would I send them a copy of ASM #1 no, would I send it to CGC no. I wouldn't send it to anyone. Both companies have had problems and short falls. But I would say that I have had no bad experience with PGX, but then like I said I only use them for the case. I would use them if they had a slab only option.
By pop-art - 2 Years Ago
Yeah... that's what keeps me from pulling the trigger on a big PGX order. Do you have any opinion on PGX for DC vs CGC? Have you noticed if DC collectors care as much about CGC vs PGX?

I do get your point re inconsistent grading, and a point can make a huge difference on a 9.6-8 book...

Thanks for the reply.

Any other opinions?
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
People will always pay more for a CGC graded book. It doesn't matter if it is DC or not. Either you are witnessing books that have had their CGC heyday and the highest grades are all that interest people now or people are more interested in having "raw" copies so graded copies do not fetch much.
By pop-art - 2 Years Ago
Thanks for the advice!
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
I would always suggest taking a look at what books are fetching graded before having them graded. There was a time when you could get more for a graded book in just about every grade but nowadays just having a book graded doesn't mean you get more money. So it is always good to just take a look around on Ebay, etc. ... especially if you think your books wouldn't get higher than 8.0 or are newer (say the last 30 years).
By culmant - 2 Years Ago
If you are thinking of spending that much money on graded books, ask yourself are they going to be sold for a profit or are they for your collection? Because in the end any book of value that is in good condition, graded or raw, will fetch a good price. If you are building a collection then the cheaper company with a great holder, PGX, works. You will still see good profit if you sell them as well. If you are looking to get the highest resale value, which is what happens often, because of CGC's popularity then CGC might be your best bet.

What I have found out is that a lot of people get books PGX graded but they don't sell them. Which means there are a lot of good high grade rare books out there people are sitting on for rainy day. Again that's what I have seen with collectors who use PGX. CGC prices include a portion of the value of the book if you sell it (if I said that right). For me that's just wrong. What if you don't want to sell or will sell in 10 years? I say go with your gut. At the end of the day its your money and your feelings that will help you sleep. There is no way to say that going with one over the other WILL give you something extra. Even my opinion is just that my opinion. Let me know what you go with.
Peace
By culmant - 2 Years Ago
I have a crazy CGC story as well. I sent in a Ms.Mystic Neal Adams books #1 & #2 signed and didn't see that a coupon was cut out of one. I thought CGC would have double checked with me on that before grading because I submitted it at Comic-con Int. and it was a high grade. One came back 9.8 and the other .5. That hurt.

PGX gave my Spawn #2 McFarlane signed 9.0 when I thought at least 9.4. Oh well. Such is life.

sorry and hope you have better luck.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
I wouldn't bother using one of the services just to get a book in a slab. Why spend all that money when it affords no more protection than a book in Mylar with a fully buffered board.

But hey if people aren't going to learn to grade themselves and spend a truckload of cash when they don't need who am I to stop them?
By ElectroKnight - 2 Years Ago
oxbladder (4/20/2012)
I wouldn't bother using one of the services just to get a book in a slab. Why spend all that money when it affords no more protection than a book in Mylar with a fully buffered board.

But hey if people aren't going to learn to grade themselves and spend a truckload of cash when they don't need who am I to stop them?


Yes sir! I would also add if they want a third party to grade their books I ElectroKnight will do so for a small charge Wink
By STEVEN REX - 2 Years Ago
if you want consistent grading pgx is the one to go too cgc has several more graders than pgx cgc graders are tought a guidline in grades but all of them differ slightly there only human and so are the guys at pgx but ther is onl;y a few graders there so you get the same type of grades through all your books and for me of late ive been very dissapointed when buying cgc graded books low grade and high while pgx ive been happy as heck with i would probally say if you can afford it send them to cgc cause of the rate they sell and the prices realized are better than pgxand your books will more then likely grade higher at cgc pgx has been real tough on books the last couple of years i have myself bought pgx books for cheeper then there cgc counterparts and then submitted them to cgc and recieved a higher grade in 85% of the books 0ne went from 7.5 to 8.5 cgc and and another 9.0 to a 9.4 when you can get 2 grades better thats something most only went up 1 grade like 7.5 to8.0 and 9.0 to 9.2 but to say pgx has horrible standards on low grade books i disagree with this ive sent in a handful of lower grade books of pgx to cgc and a couple stayed the same while the other 7 went up 1 grade and my fantastic four #50went from a 6.0 to a 7.0... i am a CGC member and have been for about 6 years and ive been buying both for about as long and submitted a small amount to pgx myself and in my oppinion pgx has gaded ((in the past 2 years)) to what ive always thought books should grade at i was always suprised when i sent some thing to cgc and the book graded higher than i thought it should wich actually means more money but i believe it lowered my standards in grading my raw books.... IF YOU ARE GOING TO0 SEL THE BOOKS YOU GET GRADED CGC DOES SELL QUICKER AND FOR MORE AS OF NOW
but make sure the book yor grading is goin to be worth it for selling if you spend 25-35 dollars on the book make sure its value is quite substatial if you send a book in that is graded even high and in guides its only worth 35 dollars dont expect to get 35 dollars out of the book unless its a very hot book if you want to sell the stuff on ebay start the price out at what you would have to get for the book oruse the buy it now but in my oppinion use areserve this usually turns away bidders cause they could bid real high even to above what the price is and still not break someones reserve but if you do descide to use a reservestate the reserve in your detail page and also ask about offers

these are my oppinions and hope they help some books do sell for more when they are cgc graded but myself i like pgx better i just wish the market would catch on to the amazing job they have done over the past couple years thanks for listenin comic book collector steven rex___
By STEVEN REX - 2 Years Ago
oxbladder (4/20/2012)
I wouldn't bother using one of the services just to get a book in a slab. Why spend all that money when it affords no more protection than a book in Mylar with a fully buffered board.

But hey if people aren't going to learn to grade themselves and spend a truckload of cash when they don't need who am I to stop them?






if your gonna buy on ebay or other computer buying sites then the 3rd party grades are very nescassary before i started buy cgc or pgx a was dissapointed with my books bought online 75% of the time pictures online do not tell the whole stor especially if they are scanned you cant see fingerprints slight finger indents and all the tiny creases that dont break color
this is why a 3rd party is nice there not always a great grade but they are more satisfying know you can buy a 8.0 and sell it as an 8.0 but with ungraded you cant always do that but hey thats my oppinion
By Mot Yrreb - 2 Years Ago

PLEASE CHECK OUT THIS LETTER BY MARK ZAID, BEFORE HE WAS TO BE CONSIDERED AS A MEMBER OF THE CGC ADVISORY BOARD.

ANY DISCUSSION?

I have spent the better part of two hours carefully drafting this post, and even more time thinking it through. It is but just the first of several substantive commentaries that I will post regarding CGC and my perception of the company and the current climate. I had initially intended to first post a response to Steve Borock’s latest thread but that will require a greater amount of time that I simply do not yet have given my legal workload. I do intend to address Steve’s remarks at a later date.

I even thought about not posting these comments in light of the fact that I have offered my time to serve on the forthcoming CGC Advisory Board. Perhaps my critical comments, even if offered in a constructive manner with the complete intent of attempting to better CGC and its services (as most of you know, given my collection, I only lose out by a loss of confidence in CGC graded books), will result in my not being chosen for the board. But if I waited to post my comments until after I found out that I was not chosen it could be construed that my comments were nothing more than sour grapes. That I cannot have, nor will I stifle my opinions. I would hope that CGC would see a value in actually having someone on its board that is constructively critical of its policies and positions. Time will tell. I will have no regrets either way.

Its name is the “Comics Guaranty, LLC”, and it is otherwise fondly known as the “Comics Guaranty Corporation” or CGC. But what exactly does this name mean? What does CGC actually “guaranty”? We should probably first start out at what exactly is a “guaranty”.

Essentially, in layman’s terms, to provide a “guaranty” means to stand behind your work or services. Does CGC do that? The uniformed might think so. But from what I can tell the only guarantee that CGC provides is to advertise its promotional rhetoric. Why do I proclaim that? Let’s examine CGC’s statements and claims.

On its website, CGC describes itself in the “About CGC” section has having “a proven and respected commitment to integrity, accuracy, consistency and impartiality in grading collectibles” that has made it a leader in its field. Under “Grading Benefits”, it asserts that under its “Expert Restoration Check”:

Part of the CGC expert grading team's review of your comic book is to perform a thorough restoration check. When detected, restoration is specifically noted on the grading label, or visible through a different colored label. Notice the disclaimer, despite the assertion it is performing an “expert restoration check”, there is the caveat of “when detected”.

Why does CGC claim its product or services “Increase Confidence Among Buyers and Sellers”? It is surprisingly not because of its “expert restoration check.” Instead, it is solely due to its claim that it has created “a consistent grading standard and a tamper-evident protective holder”.

If you review CGC’s stated history of “Why we are here”, there are numerous conclusory and great-sounding descriptive accolades of how it maintains a “proven standard of integrity”, a “commitment to hobby enrichment”, a desire to build trust, expertise, consensus, advantages for the collector and interest in our hobby. Nowhere in the discussion above is there a mention of CGC’s restoration check or any “guaranty”. Finally, at the bottom of the page, CGC notes it is generally “committed to expert restoration detection.”

What does CGC proclaim about its restoration service? In the Q & A section of its site, it states:

Q. How will I know if a comic has had restoration?


A. CGC has the industry's top team of restoration detection experts, led by Chris Friesen, Steve Borock, Mark Haspel and Paul Litch. The restoration check is an integral part of the CGC expert grading team's review of your comic book, and unlike other professional services which charge up to $100 for this service, it is included at NO EXTRA CHARGE in the CGC tier price you choose. When detected, restoration is specifically noted on the grading label, and is visible through a different colored label. CGC will assign restored books an apparent grade, which includes a description of light, moderate, or heavy restoration. This way a buyer will always know what they are getting with a CGC graded comic that has been restored.

Of course, we all know that Friesen is no longer with CGC (which is not the only out-of-date employment reference) so at the very least we can agree that CGC does not attempt to maintain an up-to-date website, except – thankfully – for the census. CGC has a “top team of restoration detection experts”, and even without Friesen’s presence on a daily basis (as Steve B. noted in his post CGC may contract out work to Friesen), I have no problem accepting this statement as true based on what I know of these gentlemen. But there again is the disclaimer of “when detected”. Apparently, CGC does not have the faith in its “restoration detection experts” even though it would have its customers hold that belief. That last sentence above, therefore, leaves a lot to be desired given the disclaimer.

So, what does CGC “Guaranty”? Again, let’s refer to CGC’s Q & A section wherein they clarify:

Q. Does CGC offer a grading guarantee?


A. Due to the fragile nature of comic books, CGC does not offer a grading guarantee. However, CGC does offer the following guarantee: a) CGC guarantees one pre-grader and two senior graders will review every comic book submitted for grading. b) CGC guarantees its holder to be free of defects. Defective holders will be replaced at no charge, except when it is determined (at CGC's sole discretion) that the holder was subjected to deliberate or unintentional abuse, or if damage is the result of storage in a hazardous environment. c) CGC guarantees that all books it certifies are authentic as described on the CGC grading label.

Mostly, CGC guarantees its process. What does c) mean? Here is the crucial ambiguity. It suggests that if CGC certifies a book as unrestored when it really is restored it guarantees that determination. Does it? I wish it were so but I daresay it is not. I wish I were wrong but I highly doubt it.

What it presumably means is that if there is an error on the label, i.e., an ASM #275 mislabeled as an ASM #277, CGC will correct their error. Or, in the case of a restored book being labeled unrestored, CGC will merely change the label designation. It will not, for example, reimburse you for any monies lost as a result of you buying a restored book based on the alleged expert detection services rendered by CGC, which is what you might reasonably expect from a company that guarantees its services.

How can we tell further what c) means? Well, just look at the label where CGC conveniently offers a more elaborate and detailed explanation as to its position regarding its guaranty, or lack thereof. There it states that “Clerical error with respect to the description or grade of a comic book that would be readily noticed on inspection will be corrected at no charge.” This makes clear my premise above is correct. But CGC goes even further in its clarification.

A restoration check has been performed on this book. Detected restoration is noted on this label in general or specific terms….A good faith effort is made to detect restoration, but CGC does not warrant its process or the results.

Why CGC does not bother to be as clear on its policy on its website is a legitimate question for which I have no answer. It should explain. And without a doubt, it should place this policy on its website for easy access to its customers and potential customers.

But just to confuse everybody so that it would imply to its customers that CGC actually does stand behind its restoration skills, it then notes on the label that with the lone exception of a book having slight CT or glue and still receiving a blue universal label, all other blue universal labels have all “been examined for restoration and none was found.” Obviously this statement is not accurate in its own right because the preceding caveat makes it plainly clear that no such guaranty is being made.

What exactly is going on here? Why is the “Guaranty” in CGC when, in fact, it fails to guarantee anything of substantive value? I know something of guarantees. As an attorney I never provide one. I, like most attorneys, make it perfectly clear to my clients that I cannot guarantee a specific result, particularly because there are always too many unknowns, i.e., what facts will arise, who the judge or jury might be, etc. Doctors also decline to provide guarantees, for good reason.

Who provides guarantees? Usually companies that provide some type of non-judgmental expert service. Let’s look at Midas mufflers, for example. Their website notes that:

In fact, we guarantee* all our work. And, we're known for our lifetime-guaranteed brakes, mufflers and shocks and struts. Our lifetime guarantee is valid for as long as you own your car.

Now, there are some limitations but we can probably all agree that Midas is generally standing behind its work. Why? Presumably because it considers its services more of a science than an art, which is what I believe restoration detection is. Grading is an art. Restoration detection is not.

Regardless of whether everyone agrees with my last analogy, and I can accept that this may be a topic for debate and I do not want this to become the focus of our discussion, the fact is that CGC – for some reason – is not willing to stand behind what is likely its most valuable commodity – its restoration detection service. Any company can grade a comic book. Not everyone can detect restoration.

Does that mean that mistakes cannot occur? Of course not. No company is perfect. A mistaken identification of a restored book as unrestored may occur, or someone may purposefully attempt to circumvent CGC’s restoration detection services and knowingly submit restored books. We know both situations have occurred with CGC. So what? Presumably these occasions are few and far in between. That is what we are continually told by CGC.

Steve Borock wrote in his latest Ewert missive on this very topic that:

As to CGC’s restoration detection ability; I know that we are the best team in the hobby, bar none. This is not a statement I make lightly but, it is a fact that I am very proud of. We probably have found more hard to detect restoration on books in the last 5 years then the people and experts in our hobby have found in the last thirty years. How many of you have bought comics before CGC opened that you believed to be unrestored, that came back from us in a purple restored label? Some of you remember what it was like before CGC and the internet. Honest collectors and dealers alike were unknowingly buying and selling restored books. Dishonest collectors and dealers were making money hand over fist. Undeclared restored books were being bought even from Sotheby’s and Christie’s auction house. Just ask Jerry Weist how many books now come back from CGC restored that were “inspected” and given a “clean bill of health” before the auctions. We are not perfect, we are human, and once in awhile something is going to get past us. Even with that, we are the best and safest insurance policy this hobby has ever seen. The graders are a group of hobbyists working very hard to make our hobby better for the reader, collector, seller, and investor. The trimming that was missed was near impossible to tell without a scan and as I have said before, if it was done seven years ago, no one would ever have caught it.


No matter how good we get, someone will always try new ways to get things past us, that’s what dishonest people do. But like a friend told me, “When you build your first mouse trap, someone is going to try and eventually figure out how to get past that trap, so you need to build a better trap.” That is what we are going to do. With the help of some people we know, it looks as if we are going to have a special scanning process that will allow us to match up comics to a scan within seconds. This will be costly and hurt our re-submissions, but it will protect the buyer and seller and help CGC “build a better mousetrap”.

Well then, if the mistaken identifications or deliberate circumvention of CGC’s expert restoration detection system are so infrequent, then why won’t CGC actually provide a genuine guarantee? Why do comic book dealers, who have nothing to do with CGC’s business, feel compelled to provide such a guarantee instead (see my other new thread on this very topic)? Frankly, I view these independent third-party guarantees not as a demonstration of dealer support of the trustworthiness of CGC’s services but as a recognition, or better yet an indication, of CGC’s failure to fulfil the expectations that it promotes and what our community deserves.

Based on the above I can only conclude that CGC is attempting to deliberately mislead its customers by inferring it stands behind its substantive services when it actually declines to do so. In fact, it openly encourages the misleading notion that we, the consumer, should have nothing more than faith in its services yet believe a guaranty exists. I find this discouraging to say the least, and I personally find it unacceptable.

The Comics Guaranty Corporation does not really exist. Certainly not in the manner in which it pretends to persuade us it does. Unless CGC is willing to stand behind some of its services, most notably its restoration detection, it should not use the word “Guaranty” in its name. When it really comes down to it, CGC is nothing more than the “Comics Grading Corporation” and that is how it should be identified and treated.

_________________________

Mark S. Zaid, Esq.

http://www.esquirecomics.com

By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
True but at the same time asking questions getting additional images can also satisfy one. I have been disappointed with raw online purchases in the past but there are things you can do to allay concerns and if you can't you simply pass on the book or don't bid very high in the first place.

I know lots of people who complain all the time about the grading online and yet they still seem to take the grading to heart and fly into a fury if the book is not as advertised. The rules are simple:

1. If a book has an advertised grade, assume it is AT LEAST one grade lower.

2. Ask questions and if you get no response or they are unsatisfactory don't bid.

3. Ask for additional images. If they are not provided do not bid.

4. Bid according to what grade the book appears to be to YOU after all the above information has been furnished. If you are still unsure don't bid or don't bid very high.

The fact is not many people ask questions or for additional images. Worse yet people don't try and keep their grading eye up to snuff. No matter whether you are buying a book online or in person never spend the money until you are satisfied you are getting what satisfies you. Even in person I have seen tons of people never crack the seal on a bag to inspect a book or even bother to look inside. So pretty much despite knowing all the risks and behaviours out there in the marketplace that tells you it is very much buyer beware people still just take people on their word and get burned.

One of the things that frustrates me the most is people knowing all these rules I have mentioned and ignoring them. Then they are angry and upset with a seller when it was their own damn fault they ignored all their own warnings. It took a few minor bad deals for me to work out my system and ever since I haven't been disappointed, well enough to give more than a neutral, with raw purchases online and since I have been buying online (since sometime in 1997 or 1998) I haven't had very many disappointments. (mind you I don't tend to spend very much money on any one purchase either. I think $282 dollars was the most I spent on one purchase on eBay and $2500 was the most I spent on one purchase from an online comic store but that was for 20 or more books (and I had to return two))
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
Mot Yrreb (4/20/2012)
PLEASE CHECK OUT THIS LETTER BY MARK ZAID, BEFORE HE WAS TO BE CONSIDERED AS A MEMBER OF THE CGC ADVISORY BOARD.

ANY DISCUSSION?


I'd love a link to where this was originally posted if you have one. Thanks in advance. Smile
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
It is likely from the CGC forum around the time of the Ewert "scandal" because both that and Borock are mentioned. Keep in mind too that Zaid is not a huge critic of CGC.
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
oxbladder (4/20/2012)
It is likely from the CGC forum around the time of the Ewert "scandal" because both that and Borock are mentioned.


needle... meet haystack
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
I should also add that Mark Zaid has nothing positive to say at all about PGX. In fact much of what he says about CGC in that post applies as well to PGX.
By mitzjob - 2 Years Ago
The jury's out with me as far as CGC goes...I mean, touting that they are the be all, know all, grade all comic kings smells like hubris to me. When I discovered that a slabbed CGC graded comic actually increases the price sometimes 3 fold if it's a high grade key, I thought F-this. I use to run a comic store from '85 to '95 and there was no such animal as CGC - everything seemed to function just fine. Yes, I think there's a place for authentic pro-staffed grading companies and I also think they could take it down a few notches...But, maybe I'm just old-school take a few courses on archival ephemera kind of guy...
By mitzjob - 2 Years Ago
Also, my opinion on the upstart PGX would be the same...although I am not that familiar with their history and or grading smarts as I am with CGC...Still, there are two types of collectors out there: The collector that collects for the joy of the hunt and having a piece of Art in his/her hands and the collector that thinks he/she needs CGC or PGX to up his/her greed.
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
Some people like the slabs. Some people like having the opinion on grade. It's not always about money.

It's far easier for me to place any inflation on price that a comic may see when it's slabbed on the consumer, first and foremost.
By GreatLaker - 2 Years Ago
I have been collecting golden-age and atom-age books for 28 years, and I am convinced of two things: 1) There is a price bubble right now due in part to slabbed books bringing speculators who are inexperienced graders into the hobby. So, I would be very cautious about paying above guide for any slabbed book; I don't believe the inflated prices will hold out long-term. I have continued to buy books even in this market, but I buy them to keep, knowing full-well that I will likely not be able to break even on them. 2) CGC grading is not strict enough with respect to page quality. For example, I recently saw a book with "slightly brittle pages" slabbed as an unqualified 7.0. To a seasoned collector, the idea of a book with slightly brittle pages being called F/VF is laughable; a grade of G (2.0) would be generous. I have seen many, many CGC-slabbed books for which the page quality seems to have been ignored.

There are some reasons why CGC books may be overgraded: 1) Fees are paid by the seller, so there is a strong incentive to please that customer, especially if that customer is a major dealer who gets a large number of books slabbed. 2) The CGC pricing structure is based on the value of the book; giving a book a higher grade generates higher fees. (Both of these may be true for PGX as well.)

I have seen far fewer PGX books, so the comparison may be unfair, but so far I have not seen any PGX books that were badly over-graded in terms of the page quality.

My best piece of advice is, learn to grade yourself so that you do not buy a book that is overgraded. The only reason to have a book slabbed is if you plan to sell it soon and have not established a good reputation as a grader in your own right. I'll pay just as much for a unslabbed book as for a slabbed book if there's a reasonable return policy. I will admit that back in the 80s there were a lot of sleazy things going on like dealers trimming books, marrying covers from brittle books to coverless books with nice pages, re-glossing covers, etc., and passing them off as unrestored, so there was a need for something like CGC or PGX, but certified grading is far from perfect at this point. (Some of those shady dealers are still active, but I'll refrain from mentioning any names.)
By dirtybird78 - 2 Years Ago
this is the best answer hands down..!!! I have uncanny x men issue 120 pgx graded 7.0.. I myself would give it a 5.0 just by looking at the cover... the higher the grade the higher the fees..
By latony007 - 2 Years Ago
This subject always amazes me, and you can tell why some people pay twice as much for the iphone just because it says iphone on it. It also amazes me that people who are slamming PGX so hard have never sent a book in. I have sent over 200 books to both services and both have their good and bad. First thing people dont get is that grading is subjective, even though the same guidelines are used it doesnt matter if you send it to PGX or CGC or some dude named Bob on a street corner, the individual is giving the grade and it is subjective. Not to mention catch somone on a bad day or their wife just left them and you will be dissapointed with your grade. I can tell you that it had been traditionally harder for me to get a 9.8 out of PGX (speaking strickly with modern books i really dont have any experience with older books to give an informed oppinion) I can also say that PGX has made a couple label mistakes i had to send back. On the plus side PGX takes 3-4 weeks and CGC 3-4 months. plus PGX is about 50% cheaper and the outer case is slightly nicer, i think most imporant is PGX seals the label in the inner well which CGC does not do. With CGC it is possible to open up a holder and switch the label to whatever you want and put it back. Thats not possible with PGX. I also like PGX will get books signed for you if they are attending a show, somethign CGC used to do but doesnt anymore.

On the whole subject i like the slabs because it makes it more apparent what your going to get buying online. I also like the way they display on my wall. Just throw one up in a bag and board on your wall and it doesnt look nearly as nice. Obvisouly there is the protection factor and i think if you want to read it that bad either take it out or buy a reader copy.
By DeadOne - 2 Years Ago
This subject amazes me as well. It always brings out the first time posters who never address the "possible" purposeful, criminal activities of those who are (or were, depending on who you ask) working for PGX (or whatever they were called the last couple of times). They always address the price difference and the turn around time like those are the only things that matter. How about respect in a company and among collectors? How about getting more for your money?

Bottom line for me, PGX (or those working for) have, in my opinion, purposely deceived collectors of this very forum whose opinions I respect, trust, and look forward to sharing. For that reason alone, I would never give them a single dime of my money... not that I give any money to CGC.
By Reaper6 - 2 Years Ago
Blah...Blah...Blah...Blah

BLUF: It's all about personal preference and what you want. They both provide the same service, one is still considered the NKOTB (PGX) and gets picked on by the CGC elitists, the other started it all (CGC) and has it's SS jack boot army in full support. If you want a quick turn around, better price, and better slab utilize PGX. If you want to sell your books and make some coin...utilize CGC.

This debate goes on hourly, daily, and monthly and it's still the same old hat with people trying to convince you one way or another. I actually read the justfanboy post "PGX and Terrance Leder: A Love Story" and laughed! I can't believe someone spent that amount of time trying to discredit a rival (yes a rival...that guy is so far up CGCs six it's pathetic). It was like a bad episode of The People's Court, in fact, I rank it with "The Case of the Peeing Pup".

Have fun and collect! If you're into slabbing send you're high end Comics to CGC and you're moderns to PGX or create you're own grading company so you can get 'beat like a red headed step child' on these pages.

It's all good...collect and have fun!
By Crispy Duck - 2 Years Ago
I still have the same opinion as I did when I first started posting in this thread.

Third party grading services are grading services that give second opinions on the grade of books submitted to them. Some people despise them because they have turned into self-propelling enterprises that encompass a whole new breed of collectors; I call them "slabists". Others are diehard supporters of them them because they know how to play the game; submitting books not worth that much and using the slab to boost the value through online auction houses.

I simply don't have that strong an opinion either way. If I really wanted a paid second opinion on a grade and whether or not any restoration has been performed (as well as a nice little case to keep the book in), I would have no problem going to CGC as I have in the past, but it just isn't that big of a deal for me whether the book is raw or not; the comic book itself is, after all, what is actually important in this equation.
By eisley - 2 Years Ago
It's a trade off, a necessary evil to buy high end comics without seeing them in person (internet) versus creating an artificial rarity that can become a speculative bubble.

There is good and bad to both companies, and to slabbing in general.

If you are an investor, CGC has managed to taint the rep of their competitor enough, that they are the only way to go for high end books. If you want to preserve your books as a collector, and like slabbing, go PGX to save money (and have it be harder to sell online).

Ultimately, if it isnt rare unslabbed, be careful what you pay for it slabbed, regardless of company.
By voxigenboy - 2 Years Ago
it seems that so far every 'graded' comic i've purchased has been done so by cgc. not so much that i look particularly for "cgc", it just so happens the graded comics i buy seem to always be cgc.

i do want to get some comics graded but have found that cgc is indeed more expensive and a big pain in the ass to go through. i am considering sending off a few issues to pgx because 1. they are cheaper, 2. they don't require a membership and 3. no "middle man" to deal with.

granted, due to the drastic difference between the 2 it does make me a bit hesitant.

still, i think i will just send off 1 - 2 to pgx and see how things work out.
By XcasperX - 2 Years Ago
Why are there no CGC un-slabbed videos bad reviews on youtube or anywhere else. I really got to look at over 7 dozen slabbed comics from cgc and pgx. From my view it looks like PGX has a way better set on how they store the comic with their slab. I have always bought CGC, so I am wondering am I just paying for the name now...I am lost in this debacal.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
XcasperX (7/23/2012)
Why are there no CGC un-slabbed videos bad reviews on youtube or anywhere else.


Huh? Not sure what you are asking here. Un-slabbed books are "raw" and people complain about them all the time Smile

I really got to look at over 7 dozen slabbed comics from cgc and pgx. From my view it looks like PGX has a way better set on how they store the comic with their slab.


Honestly, there is little difference between the two. CGC has a different inner well that has had some issues and the way PGX does their inner well can have other issues depending on what they slab. I find no difference in the outer slab except that CGC has a beeter selection of outer slabs. IMHO neither are better than a Mylar/Mylite and a full or Halfback.

I have always bought CGC, so I am wondering am I just paying for the name now...I am lost in this debacal.


You are paying more because you think you have to. For both what you are buying is a supposedly impartial, subjective opinion about the grade of a book. The case is just part of the package and in both cases the package is not the be-all and end-all of comic protection. More people value CGC's opinion over PGX. Why that adds to the value I will never know. I don't know any of their people from a hole in the ground. The few times I have purchased CGC graded books I was buying the book inside nothing else. Most of the the graded books I have bought I paid guide for. The rest that I paid more for I paid what the book was worth to me not what some seller thought it should be worth because it is graded.

I won't touch either company's product now.
By rowden - 2 Years Ago
I won't buy or slab with a "cheap" issue, it has to have value to ME.

Plus, all CGC I've bought or ones I've slabbed, I have dupes of. If I ever sell, it will probably be the raw because I want to keep the preserved stuff. Unless of course, they go out the roof value-wise. And I don't see much of that with my stuff...
By Crispy Duck - 2 Years Ago
oxbladder (7/23/2012)
You are paying more because you think you have to. For both what you are buying is a supposedly impartial, subjective opinion about the grade of a book. The case is just part of the package and in both cases the package is not the be-all and end-all of comic protection. More people value CGC's opinion over PGX. Why that adds to the value I will never know. I don't know any of their people from a hole in the ground. The few times I have purchased CGC graded books I was buying the book inside nothing else. Most of the the graded books I have bought I paid guide for. The rest that I paid more for I paid what the book was worth to me not what some seller thought it should be worth because it is graded.

ox, why does CPG have a "raw" and a "graded" value for all books?

Is Comics Price Guide also a victim of the "perceived" CGC value bump?

I ask because, although some value differences between "raw" and "graded" we see here are subtle enough that I could understand why there is a value difference in the first place; a 3rd party grading service has provided a grade, which should take some of the guesswork out of the process of buying or selling said book, and the case is a nice feature. However, let's look at a more extreme example...

Spider-Man versus Wolverine #1

9.8 raw = $28... 9.8 graded = $120???

10 raw = $40... 10 graded = $800???

Where are these "graded" value estimates even extracted from? Is there any precedent for them at all?
By XcasperX - 2 Years Ago
Ox for that first question it was about an actual video of going and actual breaking into the slab. I only can find CPX.

What do you guy think about this idea, I was just thinking of going to go through CPX and just get the issue slabbed for the protection aspect. Or should I just go with a heavier duty sleeve?

Thanks for the input.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
XcasperX (7/23/2012)
Ox for that first question it was about an actual video of going and actual breaking into the slab. I only can find CPX.


I have seen one before but I don't remember where. CGC has details on how to crack a slab though, I believe.

What do you guy think about this idea, I was just thinking of going to go through CPX and just get the issue slabbed for the protection aspect. Or should I just go with a heavier duty sleeve? Thanks for the input.


A Mylar/Mylite with a full or halfback will offer as much or more preservation and cost much less. IMHO.
By dazedgtojudge - 2 Years Ago
I live in Eugene and have only recently started having different experiences with PGX and its "employee" and none of my "experiences"have been good.Matter of fact all the stories that I have been told over the years have been coming to true.And I have seen shifty and dishonest things happen that really piss me off.I would love to have a company in my home town that I could trust to grade my comics .I really would .
By Cody - 2 Years Ago

How to crack a CGC case.... Just do a search on youtube and watch a few
By Cody - 2 Years Ago
I am going to take a chance on 2 PGX books, I normally stick to CGC but
the price difference between a cgc 9.8 - pgx 9.8 is huge in some cases.
I have heard all the horror stories and the pros and cons of each.
Sometimes you need to check stuff for yourself, I have a few CGC 9.8s
so doing some compairisons with PGX will be fun.
By steviehuv66 - 2 Years Ago
I was wondering if you had sent your books to PGX and if so, what did you think of their service? Thanks.
By Freefall1977 - 2 Years Ago
I don't know much about PGX, but from what I read and can tell CGC slab does not secure the comic completely thus resulting in the comic moving around(during shipping and such) causing bend/dent corners. I have seen 9.6 or 9.8 graded comics with such dent corners thus preventing me from purchasing them. To me it is not good customer service if they can't do a good job at securing the book and cause damages like that.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
Freefall1977 (9/22/2012)
I don't know much about PGX, but from what I read and can tell CGC slab does not secure the comic completely thus resulting in the comic moving around(during shipping and such) causing bend/dent corners. I have seen 9.6 or 9.8 graded comics with such dent corners thus preventing me from purchasing them. To me it is not good customer service if they can't do a good job at securing the book and cause damages like that.


They do secure the book in the slab however it is not strapped down or anything and can move in the case IF MISHANDLED or not packaged properly. That being said damage can happen in ANY comic slab or sleeve in the same conditions. Have you never dropped a book on edge, etc? Could CGC design the inner case better? Possibly but at the same time if you package a handle the slab prperly then you should have zero issues. In fact while there are cases of shaken comic syndrome the majority of CGC slabbed books have no damage and this despite being shipped at least once.

As for PGX their quality control is horrid and they still grade stuff for at least on scammer. If you want cheap and questionable then PGX is the service for you. IMHO they are crooks

I don't endorse either service but if I were to get my books grade for some reason I would deal with CGC because they most resemble a quality assurance company. They are one mind you but close.
By texranger37 - 2 Years Ago
Well,

I'm going to say that I have used PGX and never CGC. My reasons were based on swiftness, cost and convenience. I just wanted certain books slabbed, which (in my mind at the time) was the best way to keep myself from reading them into oblivion.

Now, I have read much information on both companies. I knew that I was taking a risk by sending my stuff to PGX, but it was a risk I was willing to take. If there were any shenanigans, I would have happily taken a trip to speak with the PGX folks myself. But, as it were, all went just fine.

On the one hand, we say PGX are crooks (and they could be), but to be fair, we should also cry foul that CGC has some unacceptable...quirks too. Let me enumerate - I have never understood:

1. Why I have to pay more to have my comic graded based on the value of the comic. (PGX CGC)
-All grading processes are the same right? Is there more work involved? Are there more materials and people involved? If so, why? Shouldn't all grading processes be equally thorough across the board, making the need for separate prices nonexistant?

2. Why there is a minimun amount of comics of diferent eras that can be sent.
-If I am paying for services rendered, why can't I send what I please? The prosaic collector might not be able to meet these requirements often. And why should he/she have to? Could it be that it is an exclusionary policy. If so, I'd venture to say that's uncool.

3. Why I MUST to be a member to personally send my comics to be graded.
- If I, the collector, am your bread and butter, why must I go through am intermediary, unless I pay for the priviledge of having my comics slabbed? This brings us to...

4. Why I have to pay for CGC services (membership) and then pay again for using those services when I send my comics in to be slabbed. You grade, I pay, transaction done. That sounds normal.

5. Why CGC and PGX are even taken so seriously at all.
-There is no "School of Grading" and no "official comics grading certification" to speak of. These guys make educated guesses, just as we all do.

I own a few graded comics because I like the dang cases. They make me feel like my comic is protected; however, I have learned, as I matured as a collector, that a nice stiff mylar and a good comic box or file cabinet works just as well. A few years ago, as a younger collector, CGC and PGX comics made my eyes twirl about in my head like doll eyes, now I won't pay a dollar more for a slabbed comic. I'll take it unslabbed if it's cheaper, and slabbed only if the price is reasonable (comparable to an unslabbed comic that looks about the same).

Grading is subjective, no matter who does it.

That's my half cent, from my half of a brain. Laugh


TEX
By thatjerk - 2 Years Ago
texranger37 (9/23/2012)1. Why I have to pay more to have my comic graded based on the value of the comic. (PGX CGC)
-All grading processes are the same right? Is there more work involved? Are there more materials and people involved? If so, why? Shouldn't all grading processes be equally thorough across the board, making the need for separate prices nonexistant?

TEX


My assumption on this has been for insurance reasons. If your expert grader accidentally spills his morning coffee on a copy of Action Comics #1, it would cost a lot more to replace the book than if he had done so to a copy of Kickers Inc. Also, an older book would actually have to be flipped through and have the pages counted (they should do that for moderns too, but have heard from people that have submitted 'perfect' moderns on the outside with wrecked interiors not being noticed).

By - 2 Years Ago
Alright you trolls,

Let's not get all caught up in how great CGC is now.....remember they're still part of the collector's Society (which I am a member). That means they are closely related (not to mention managed either directly or indirectly) to NGC, PMG, etc.....

So for those of you who are mumismatic oriented - You know that NGC (CGC's retarded sister/coin grading service) is considered to be the "PGX" of coin grading services. PCGS is considered to be the gold standard.

As for gradin' (that's how we say it on the streets lol), PGX grading quality is comparable to CGC and anyone who would argue otherwise is most likely retarded (or a retraded CGC employee). I can beat, fool, and confuse a CGC grader just as easily as I could beat a PGX grader.....so get over yourselves.

And I'm sure ya'll have noticed the new and improved 100 day (LMAO) turn around for Modern Books on the CGC website.....yep 100 days to get your book....kinda forces you to pay the extra 10 bucks for Fast track just so you can get your book back in this decade!

My chief complaint is PGX's case appearance....their labels just suck all kinds of butt. If they would just update their style to a professional look then I would all over them! Presentation is 80% percent of the battle! Why can't they just do what CGC/NGC did and rip off PCGS's case style!!!

Side note....I'm still waiting on submissions from the San Diego Comic Con....haven't been graded yet and we're in November...yep

By rowden - 2 Years Ago
(11/7/2012)

Side note....I'm still waiting on submissions from the San Diego Comic Con....haven't been graded yet and we're in November...yep

Same here.
By bblack008 - 2 Years Ago
Wow!! This thread is filled with all kinds of awesomeness! Ah, the minutiae of collecting... both wondrous (when our obsession is shared with the elucidated) and slightly embarrassing (when our obsession is revealed to the unenlightened). Just wonderful stuff. Love it.
By reddwarf6662 - 2 Years Ago
rowden (11/8/2012)
(11/7/2012)

Side note....I'm still waiting on submissions from the San Diego Comic Con....haven't been graded yet and we're in November...yep

Same here.
I can tell you this it took 115 Business Days to get my modern submissions in from the CGC when I submitted them at Phoenix ComicCon. Sad part is they sat in the encapsulation phase for over a month and I was quoted a turnaround time of 45 business days.
By reddwarf6662 - 2 Years Ago
(11/7/2012)
Alright you trolls,

Let's not get all caught up in how great CGC is now.....remember they're still part of the collector's Society (which I am a member). That means they are closely related (not to mention managed either directly or indirectly) to NGC, PMG, etc.....

So for those of you who are mumismatic oriented - You know that NGC (CGC's retarded sister/coin grading service) is considered to be the "PGX" of coin grading services. PCGS is considered to be the gold standard.

As for gradin' (that's how we say it on the streets lol), PGX grading quality is comparable to CGC and anyone who would argue otherwise is most likely retarded (or a retraded CGC employee). I can beat, fool, and confuse a CGC grader just as easily as I could beat a PGX grader.....so get over yourselves.

And I'm sure ya'll have noticed the new and improved 100 day (LMAO) turn around for Modern Books on the CGC website.....yep 100 days to get your book....kinda forces you to pay the extra 10 bucks for Fast track just so you can get your book back in this decade!

My chief complaint is PGX's case appearance....their labels just suck all kinds of butt. If they would just update their style to a professional look then I would all over them! Presentation is 80% percent of the battle! Why can't they just do what CGC/NGC did and rip off PCGS's case style!!!

Side note....I'm still waiting on submissions from the San Diego Comic Con....haven't been graded yet and we're in November...yep

Going under the name Unknown for 1 post is this Daniel by any chance? All jokes aside. I can tell you this if you call PGX only 1 person has answered the phone and that is Daniel Patterson when our group was doing an article for Science Fiction Newspaper comparing CGC to PGX. We came to the decision if your looking just to slab the comic for protection and prevent you from using it then go with PGX in almost all instances, but with the exception of key issues, signatures, and very high grade issues your looking to flip then you should use the CGC. Paying more for grading comics of certain value yes you do this for CGC, but it is an insurance in case the comic gets damaged in their hands. It means they will reimburse you if they damage the comic. You also can pick to submit it under any tier and they won't usually say much as long as the years fit those brackets. Rare exceptions you could be my uncle who submitted an Amazing Fantasy 15 under express and gets the call from CGC you owe us more money for the grading because you undervalued the book and its worth alot more than you think. He thought it was worth maybe 5 grand in its condition, but in the end sold the comic for 70 grand and bought himself a lower grade issue. Instances like that are very rare to where they call the submitter and when they do it is for good reasons like I listed above.
By oxbladder - 2 Years Ago
Not likely Daniel. I doubt Daniel would be submitting books to CGC.
By pmadreenter - 2 Years Ago
Or criticizing the material PGX uses for their cases.
By SomeCollector - 2 Years Ago
oxbladder (4/20/2012)
I wouldn't bother using one of the services just to get a book in a slab. Why spend all that money when it affords no more protection than a book in Mylar with a fully buffered board.

But hey if people aren't going to learn to grade themselves and spend a truckload of cash when they don't need who am I to stop them?


I am very relieved to find this thread.

I'm reasonably new to collecting comics. In comparison to I'd imagine 99.9% of you guys, I'd be the complete n00b.

I've been trying to work out about grading the comics. I won a couple of rippers on eBay for a good price that are signed by multiple peeps, but because these weren't done in front of a CGC representative, the pieces can not be encapsulated as a "Signature Series".

So I began to wonder about why it was so important to me to get them in a slab. Had I lost sight of why I was collecting in the vague hope that my collection might be worth a lot of money in the future? Why did I care what a third party thought of my comic?

The reality is that I'm not collecting them to sell. I'm collecting them for me, so the value of each comic is completely subjective and based upon the value of the piece to me.


One day if they were worth a lot of money and my kids, or my kid's kids needed to sell one to get themselves out of a bind then that would be okay on the condition that they were prepared for me to haunt them for freaking ever for selling my preciousssss. :-)

Reading this thread has really helped me come to terms with what the right course of action is and, for me, that is Mylar and a Backing Board. Hell.. I might even double board them. Why not.

Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback. I keep my comics pristine. So I don't care what someone else grades them. Frankly, I'd be peeved if the return from the grading company was less than my sentimental evaluation and this then forever impacted my own ability to enjoy the piece.

Although I'd like to get a nice way to display them. Anyone got advice on (affordable) picture framing? haha... I'll search the board first - not hijack this thread.
By reddwarf6662 - 2 Years Ago
Affordable Framing
Some people like Frame it again Sam
http://www.frameitagainsam.com/index.php?cPath=24&osCsid=ad7da9d9833fd34e4b51d1eac5e38e96
Some people like Gweedo's Showcase
http://gweedosshowcase.com/
I like custom framing myself, but that gets extremely expensive.
By SomeCollector - 2 Years Ago
reddwarf6662 (11/27/2012)
Affordable Framing
Some people like Frame it again Sam
http://www.frameitagainsam.com/index.php?cPath=24&osCsid=ad7da9d9833fd34e4b51d1eac5e38e96
Some people like Gweedo's Showcase
http://gweedosshowcase.com/
I like custom framing myself, but that gets extremely expensive.


Thanks very much!! :-) I don't want to derail the thread so if you ever have the time to PM me some ideas about custom framing (I'm a noob) I'd really appreciate it.
By DemonoidTentacle - Last Year
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?
By oxbladder - Last Year
They use a archival grade of polyester film from what i remember. If you are asking about outer case then neither company has an archival outer case.
By oxbladder - Last Year
I think they use a Barex polyester film. There are various types of both Mylar and Barex and some of the types are good for archival uses. I think there may be some discussion about this on the STL Forum (you will have to search).

As an aside, when I was researching polyester films I came across and old "fact sheet" saying that Mylar D was no longer being made. So there are plenty of myths floating out there.
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT
By DemonoidTentacle - Last Year
reddwarf6662 (5/19/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT


What a pain. Not looking forward to return overseas shipping in a few years time.
By teh_longinator - Last Year
DemonoidTentacle (5/20/2013)
reddwarf6662 (5/19/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT


What a pain. Not looking forward to return overseas shipping in a few years time.


What I would do (so take it with a grain of salt), is just crack the case open. If you really want the comic "graded", just save the small paper that states the grade.

I'm sorry, but I don't have much faith in CGC. Too much variation, and when money is involved, you can never trust results.
By DemonoidTentacle - Last Year
teh_longinator (5/20/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/20/2013)
reddwarf6662 (5/19/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT


What a pain. Not looking forward to return overseas shipping in a few years time.


What I would do (so take it with a grain of salt), is just crack the case open. If you really want the comic "graded", just save the small paper that states the grade.

I'm sorry, but I don't have much faith in CGC. Too much variation, and when money is involved, you can never trust results.


It's not that it's graded for me, it's about it being a Signature Series. To me, if a signed comic isn't CGCSS, or have some kind of recognised certificate of authenticity, the signature is a fake.

Speaking of, has anyone had any experience with the PGX Signature Edition?
By mwhelehan - Last Year
Honestly, that's why the only signatures I've collected are ones that I asked for (with the exception of the Ten Grand I just got from rowden - thanks, rowden). I've got a couple of sports heroes as well as comic creators. Nothing huge, just ones that I could get locally.
By robotcat - Last Year
CGC vs. PGX? now that's a noodle scratcher...

I think PGX would win in a fight, the X means they're willing to fight dirty.
They'd certainly have no qualms about putting CGC on the slab.



The first rule of fisticuffs club is, you do not have a chinwag about fisticuffs club.

The second rule of fisticuffs club is, you do not have a chinwag about fisticuffs club.

Third rule is... no skirts allowed.
By hermanwilliams - Last Year
Does the archival paper matter with modern books? Aren't they supposed to be acid free?
By nevermind - Last Year
reddwarf6662 (5/19/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT


Can you link to this? I can't find it. -Steve
By oxbladder - Last Year
hermanwilliams (5/20/2013)
Does the archival paper matter with modern books? Aren't they supposed to be acid free?


I don't believe mass production paper is acid free. That would be very expensive.
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
nevermind (5/20/2013)
reddwarf6662 (5/19/2013)
DemonoidTentacle (5/19/2013)
I've heard murmurs around that the plastic PGX uses for their slabs in greatly inferior, and a book will have to be reslabbed 10 years down the track. Is there any truth to this?


You have to reslab CGC and PGX AFTER 10 YEARS IT SAYS IT ON BOTH THEIR WEBSITES BECAUSE THE ARCHIVAL PAPER LOSES ITS EFFECT


Can you link to this? I can't find it. -Steve


I can't find it they say its seven years not ten, but does the paper really make a difference look at the high grade church collection. What makes a difference is how you store them climate, temperature, and more
By oxbladder - Last Year
reddwarf6662 (5/21/2013)


I can't find it they say its seven years not ten, but does the paper really make a difference look at the high grade church collection. What makes a difference is how you store them climate, temperature, and more


Absolutely right. Church also stacked his books.
By Pdxglide - Last Year
I just got into sending my comics away and googled what company is better. It's a tie 50/50 as far as reviews go. So I sent a couple to each. And just got them all back today. I sent a copy of walking dead variant kill em all to each company. I took pics of both before I sent off. So on the cgc one there is a ding in the top corner that wasn't there before and the packaging you can tell was totally rushed. There's a big air bubble and scratches on the inside of the case I got a 9.6 the other comic I sent same grade same condition I sent it in but again air bubbles and rushed seal job. Now on to pgx. The comics came back same condition I sent them in and the packaging is perfect. Aligned right, No air bubbles no scratches and about 40 dollars cheaper. Also got back in two weeks. Cgc a little over two months and I paid for rush service. Pgx graded fairly as well. It's a no brainer or me. Ill go with pgx from now. I'm not a hardcore mutant who has to have cgc.
By Cody - Last Year
The one thing I am starting to notice with CGC, is that with some modern books (the walking dead)
there appears to be scuffing and or discoloration on the inside of some of the cases.
I have 4 cgc walking dead books that have it in some form.
By oxbladder - Last Year
Pdxglide (5/30/2013)
I just got into sending my comics away and googled what company is better. It's a tie 50/50 as far as reviews go. So I sent a couple to each. And just got them all back today. I sent a copy of walking dead variant kill em all to each company. I took pics of both before I sent off. So on the cgc one there is a ding in the top corner that wasn't there before and the packaging you can tell was totally rushed. There's a big air bubble and scratches on the inside of the case I got a 9.6 the other comic I sent same grade same condition I sent it in but again air bubbles and rushed seal job. Now on to pgx. The comics came back same condition I sent them in and the packaging is perfect. Aligned right, No air bubbles no scratches and about 40 dollars cheaper. Also got back in two weeks. Cgc a little over two months and I paid for rush service. Pgx graded fairly as well. It's a no brainer or me. Ill go with pgx from now. I'm not a hardcore mutant who has to have cgc.


Air bubble? Not sure why this would matter.

Mind you I would get books slabbed anyway. Waste of money no matter who you use.

All I know is that I would never use PGX because I believe their crooks and incompetent.

EDITED for potentially libellous statement.
By Michael923 - Last Year
Here Ox, I have to respectfully disagree.
The air bubble does matter because you are paying "x" amount of dollars for something, and you want it in the best possible condition it can be, which we know is completely air tight.
I do agree on your opinion of getting things slabbed though.
How are they crooks and incompetent? Both do the same thing, based off of the same scale, just one is a cheaper alternative, it's like buying generic drugs from a pharmacy, does the same thing but minus the name and cost. I have seen the TMNT #1 vid, but that was desputable.
there is no way to know for sure that you are getting the same book back, unless you put an identifiable mark on it or every book you send in, especially for a modern. It wouldnt be too easy to replace an Action Comics #1 or a Tec #27. (vol. 1 not New 52)
By oxbladder - Last Year
Actually, sealing paper items air tight isn't the best thing for them. Cool, dry (but not too dry) and dark is the best thing for preserving paper. If you seal a comic air tight, even with microchamber paper, you will eventually have to break the seal or the book will crumble to nothing.

I don't want to get into why PGX are incompentent and crooks. Needless to say there is more than enough info out there on the interweb about PGX's numerous faults and shady business dealings.
By pmadreenter - Last Year
Pdxglide (5/30/2013)
I just got into sending my comics away and googled what company is better. It's a tie 50/50 as far as reviews go. So I sent a couple to each. And just got them all back today. I sent a copy of walking dead variant kill em all to each company. I took pics of both before I sent off. So on the cgc one there is a ding in the top corner that wasn't there before and the packaging you can tell was totally rushed. There's a big air bubble and scratches on the inside of the case I got a 9.6 the other comic I sent same grade same condition I sent it in but again air bubbles and rushed seal job. Now on to pgx. The comics came back same condition I sent them in and the packaging is perfect. Aligned right, No air bubbles no scratches and about 40 dollars cheaper. Also got back in two weeks. Cgc a little over two months and I paid for rush service. Pgx graded fairly as well. It's a no brainer or me. Ill go with pgx from now. I'm not a hardcore mutant who has to have cgc.


Posts: 1 Visits: 1

Did you join the group so you could tell us about this?

Thanks for sharing.
By Michael923 - Last Year
If he's a spam bot, pmad, he's the most intelectual one I've come across.
By Michael923 - Last Year
True, Ox, but I think that's where both of them get you with having you send it in every few years to reslab it.
I agree air tight isnt the right thing, but it is still what is paid for.
By oxbladder - Last Year
I haven't seen air bubbles in either companies. Well other than the big "air bubble" the comic sits in. With PGX the way they weld the Barex there wouldn't be air bubbles. There would be a void in the weld (not a bad thing).

With CGC i am not entirely sure how their inner well is. I was under the impression it wasn't an airtight arrangement. (Which would explain why one person on the CGC forum's book rusted in a fireproof safe) Perhaps this "air bubble" is just the inner well stuck to the outer casing?
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
Michael923 (5/30/2013)
If he's a spam bot, pmad, he's the most intelectual one I've come across.

I actually agree with pmad's analysis. I just didn't want to be the first one to say it.
By Michael923 - Last Year
Well his name is pretty close to a "PGX" advertisement, just rearange some of the letters.
You could be right, Ox. That's probably the best answer for the situation without actually having been there to see what it could have been.
By Kitdog - Last Year
I have used PGX for some books, not because I wanted them graded or cared about the grade, but because I wanted a safe way to display them. I sent about 20 books to them over the years and have to say I am happy with the product, it comes back quickly and is packed really really well when shipped back to me.

They were mostly personalized to me. I just wanted the slab this is all I would ever use a grading service for unless I was going to sell something, which I would never. at at 11 bucks each it was way way way cheaper than using CGC. and I have cracked a couple and yes there is Micro paper in there and they are well sealed into the slab. I have no complaints. but I don't sell comics either.


http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/cr8meone/2013-05-30_22-50-43_39_zps399057e0.jpg
By nevermind - Last Year
Those are not air bubbles. Ox already stated it. It is the inner Mylar/soft plastic touching the outer shell. You can seperate them by sliding a piece of paper between them. -Steve
By hermanwilliams - Last Year
[/quote]All I know is that I would never use PGX because their crooks and incompetent.[/quote]

I think they are both crooks. Saying that you would use one over the other is like saying you will vote for lesser of two evils. Which is the lesser is what is debatable.

EDITED for potentially libelous statement.
By Crispy Duck - Last Year
I don't collect either type, but for a grade and a piece of plastic, PGX is probably your best value.

I say that because for me it would cheaper and faster, and that's all I really care about. I want the grade, not the slab, so CGC would be both a waste of additional time and money for a guy like me. Now, for people who want to maximize the marketability of their books, CGC would be the way to go. It's the big seller. It's the status quo "brand" so to speak. It's the one that's going to get you those extra dollars come auction time.
By rowden - Last Year
Crispy Duck (5/31/2013)
I don't collect either type, but for a grade and a piece of plastic, PGX is probably your best value.

I say that because for me it would cheaper and faster, and that's all I really care about. I want the grade, not the slab, so CGC would be both a waste of additional time and money for a guy like me. Now, for people who want to maximize the marketability of their books, CGC would be the way to go. It's the big seller. It's the status quo "brand" so to speak. It's the one that's going to get you those extra dollars come auction time.


So true. I've seen the same book, at the same grade, sell at a rather noticable difference. All because of which company it was graded by.
By oxbladder - Last Year
hermanwilliams (5/31/2013)
All I know is that I would never use PGX because I think their crooks and incompetent.


I think they are both crooks. Saying that you would use one over the other is like saying you will vote for lesser of two evils. Which is the lesser is what is debatable.


Never said I would use one over the other. I wouldn't use CGC because they could do better but don't and I wouldn't use PGX because they seem crook and incompetent

EDITED for potentially libelous statement.
By dregan - Last Year
I have submitted books to both CGC and PGX. I prefer the feel and look of PGX cases, except for their labels which need work, however I cannot attest to their crookedness. I have a membership to CGC and self submit books to them, and I only did this because they are the more reputable of the two no matter who you talk to, so I use them for books that I may end up selling at some point and don't mind waiting a few months to get them back (CGC really needs to do better with their turn around times). PGX I use for books that are personal to me, that I know I will not sell but want to add an extra layer of protection versus a bag and board... and/or books that I don't want to wait a couple of months to get back.

I said above that CGC needs to do a better job on their turn around times. They are slow, they do not even come close to the target turn around times they "estimate", and they are pricey compared to PGX. Here are the last two submissions I sent to CGC:

Arrived to CGC 19 Apr 13, paid for Standard tier with a 15 day turn around. 18 business days later, they had been graded. They sat in "grading quality control" for another 8 business days before they were "shipped/safe" (28 May 13)

Arrived to CGC 9 May 13, paid for Modern Fast Track tier with a 10 day turnaround. 12 business days after arrival they went to grading, 13 business days later they were marked graded, however they are still marked graded and have not moved to "Grading/Quality Control".... I was told this was because they were all up at WW Philadelphia for onsite grading.... so apparently my books take a back burner and they are willing to bust their turnaround times. This is the kind of crap that drives people to their competition.

My last submission to PGX:

Arrived PGX 1 February, paid for PGX-Press with 8 day turnaround. It was graded, QC'd, and en-route back to me 12 business days later.
By rowden - Last Year
That video had no relevance to the topic and was a waste of my time.

EDIT- ok what happened to the video?
By needler420 - Last Year
rowden (6/2/2013)
That video had no relevance to the topic and was a waste of my time.

EDIT- ok what happened to the video?


lmao I must have deleted it as you were watching it. Realized wrong thread.
By LCSscallywag - Last Year
I just sent off this past week a couple comics to PGX due to the price difference between them and CGC. I've never sent anything off to get slabbed before so this is all new to me.

My research basically came across as CGC is the "trusted" grader because they've been around longer while PGX does the same work for cheaper.

We'll see how it all goes in a couple weeks.

I'll be honest, I'm more worried about the USPS losing my damn package of comics before it gets to PGX then I am of PGX screwing something up.

EDIT: I know this is a 1 visit/1 post thing. I promise I'm not a PGX fanboy. Just trying to save some money on some sweet comics I came across that I don't plan on selling anytime soon.
By Michael923 - Last Year
LCSscallywag (6/2/2013)
I just sent off this past week a couple comics to PGX due to the price difference between them and CGC. I've never sent anything off to get slabbed before so this is all new to me.

My research basically came across as CGC is the "trusted" grader because they've been around longer while PGX does the same work for cheaper.

We'll see how it all goes in a couple weeks.

I'll be honest, I'm more worried about the USPS losing my damn package of comics before it gets to PGX then I am of PGX screwing something up.

EDIT: I know this is a 1 visit/1 post thing. I promise I'm not a PGX fanboy. Just trying to save some money on some sweet comics I came across that I don't plan on selling anytime soon.


I don't hold people's visit/post amount against them. Just because you have a low count, doesn't mean you don't have experiance.
By loki2u - Last Year
Michael923 (6/2/2013)
LCSscallywag (6/2/2013)
I just sent off this past week a couple comics to PGX due to the price difference between them and CGC. I've never sent anything off to get slabbed before so this is all new to me.

My research basically came across as CGC is the "trusted" grader because they've been around longer while PGX does the same work for cheaper.

We'll see how it all goes in a couple weeks.

I'll be honest, I'm more worried about the USPS losing my damn package of comics before it gets to PGX then I am of PGX screwing something up.

EDIT: I know this is a 1 visit/1 post thing. I promise I'm not a PGX fanboy. Just trying to save some money on some sweet comics I came across that I don't plan on selling anytime soon.


I don't hold people's visit/post amount against them. Just because you have a low count, doesn't mean you don't have experiance.


Having a high post count doesn't mean you have experience either.
By Michael923 - Last Year
loki2u (6/2/2013)
Michael923 (6/2/2013)
LCSscallywag (6/2/2013)
I just sent off this past week a couple comics to PGX due to the price difference between them and CGC. I've never sent anything off to get slabbed before so this is all new to me.

My research basically came across as CGC is the "trusted" grader because they've been around longer while PGX does the same work for cheaper.

We'll see how it all goes in a couple weeks.

I'll be honest, I'm more worried about the USPS losing my damn package of comics before it gets to PGX then I am of PGX screwing something up.

EDIT: I know this is a 1 visit/1 post thing. I promise I'm not a PGX fanboy. Just trying to save some money on some sweet comics I came across that I don't plan on selling anytime soon.


I don't hold people's visit/post amount against them. Just because you have a low count, doesn't mean you don't have experiance.


Having a high post count doesn't mean you have experience either.


Yes, but many people look down upon those who have a low count especially if their first post is about either CGC or PGX and taking a side amongst the two. There have been plenty of instances of which someone posts and someone will say "1 post and 1 visit." or something like that, which is obviously why the poster added the Edit.
By Kitdog - Last Year
LCSscallywag (6/2/2013)
I just sent off this past week a couple comics to PGX due to the price difference between them and CGC. I've never sent anything off to get slabbed before so this is all new to me.

My research basically came across as CGC is the "trusted" grader because they've been around longer while PGX does the same work for cheaper.

We'll see how it all goes in a couple weeks.

I'll be honest, I'm more worried about the USPS losing my damn package of comics before it gets to PGX then I am of PGX screwing something up.

EDIT: I know this is a 1 visit/1 post thing. I promise I'm not a PGX fanboy. Just trying to save some money on some sweet comics I came across that I don't plan on selling anytime soon.


Didn't you get tracking?
When I sent to PGX I got tracking and also sent a printed page of scans of the covers of comics included. Just in case.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
So now that CGC has changed their stance on tape, what is PGX's stance on using tape to repair a cover? Anyone know about this?
By oxbladder - Last Year
They have a stance on something? From what I have seen they are all about making books more profitable and they will do anything to that end no matter the cognative dissonance.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
I think everyone can agree that both companies have done things that might seem unprofessional or shady but both of them are in the business to not only make themselves money but to also make books profitable.
By oxbladder - Last Year
dmting (6/7/2013)
I think everyone can agree that both companies have done things that might seem unprofessional or shady but both of them are in the business to not only make themselves money but to also make books profitable.


No their job is strictly to grade comics. Since they are supposed to be unbiased third parties they should have no other opinion on the industry. they should also not be deciding any grading criteria. They should be bound by standards separate from their companies and policed by outside entities.

Sadly though most people in the hobby let them and PGX do whatever they want because they have zero clue what quality control and assurance is. I can tell you that in many other professional fields these two companies would be a laughing stock.
By bblack008 - Last Year
oxbladder (6/8/2013)
dmting (6/7/2013)
I think everyone can agree that both companies have done things that might seem unprofessional or shady but both of them are in the business to not only make themselves money but to also make books profitable.


No their job is strictly to grade comics. Since they are supposed to be unbiased third parties they should have no other opinion on the industry. they should also not be deciding any grading criteria. They should be bound by standards separate from their companies and policed by outside entities.

Sadly though most people in the hobby let them and PGX do whatever they want because they have zero clue what quality control and assurance is. I can tell you that in many other professional fields these two companies would be a laughing stock.


What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
oxbladder (6/8/2013)
dmting (6/7/2013)
I think everyone can agree that both companies have done things that might seem unprofessional or shady but both of them are in the business to not only make themselves money but to also make books profitable.


No their job is strictly to grade comics. Since they are supposed to be unbiased third parties they should have no other opinion on the industry. they should also not be deciding any grading criteria. They should be bound by standards separate from their companies and policed by outside entities.

Sadly though most people in the hobby let them and PGX do whatever they want because they have zero clue what quality control and assurance is. I can tell you that in many other professional fields these two companies would be a laughing stock.


While their job is to grade comics, having a book graded will, more often than not, result in a more profitable book to the submitter when the book is sold. This will drive demand for their service which will drive more people to their product. CGC seems to be a little greedy of the two with not only how their pricing scale works but also with how they've increased their prices over the years. Unfortunately, until something else comes out that's better, these are the only things we have.
By needler420 - Last Year
Seems to me PGX does what a toploader can do.
By mwhelehan - Last Year
bblack008 (6/8/2013) What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First, I hope you can agree that not all comics are children's entertainment.

Second, their goal is to make money. But there is something to be said for ethical practices. Oxbladder's right. The standards should be third party: such as using the Overstreet guide or some other such set of rules/guidelines that they themselves should not be able to change or modify. If they also tie their pricing to the value of a book it becomes an obvious conflict of interest. I contacted an auction house to get an appraisal for a set of books I was thinking of selling. The woman told me up front that it was against the law for her to tie her fees into the value of the books, that it must be a flat rate. I'm wondering why the same thing does not happen with comic books.

Third, ultimately it is once again the responsibility of us, the consumers and hobbyists, to dictate the prices based on how we spend our money. If we feel that what they are doing is unethical, inappropriate, or exorbitant then we can contact them to let them know how we feel or vote with our wallets (which I believe is much more effective).
By bblack008 - Last Year
mwhelehan (6/8/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013) What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First, I hope you can agree that not all comics are children's entertainment.

Second, their goal is to make money. But there is something to be said for ethical practices. Oxbladder's right. The standards should be third party: such as using the Overstreet guide or some other such set of rules/guidelines that they themselves should not be able to change or modify. If they also tie their pricing to the value of a book it becomes an obvious conflict of interest. I contacted an auction house to get an appraisal for a set of books I was thinking of selling. The woman told me up front that it was against the law for her to tie her fees into the value of the books, that it must be a flat rate. I'm wondering why the same thing does not happen with comic books.

Third, ultimately it is once again the responsibility of us, the consumers and hobbyists, to dictate the prices based on how we spend our money. If we feel that what they are doing is unethical, inappropriate, or exorbitant then we can contact them to let them know how we feel or vote with our wallets (which I believe is much more effective).


I agree that comics aren't all children's entertainment. I used the reference as hyberbole to illustrate that this shouldn't be overseen by some government agency; it's not important enough.

My point was to refute the idea of a "third party" setting standards. How is this to be done? How would this agency be funded? How would they enforce these standards? These things all cost time and money. In addition, it would take clout or power. Else why would CGC/PGX be beholden to this oversight that's being proposed? I just don't see it happening.

Of course, spending habits will always dictate how companies operate. Spending habits are, unfortunately, much easier to control on a micro level than they are on a macro level. You or I could definitely individually boycott a grading company very easily. Getting others to join in, however, is much more difficult.
By oxbladder - Last Year
bblack008 (6/8/2013)

What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First off qc is something that stems from QA. Following a set of standards inevitably give you QC. QC is something PGX has lacked in the past because they have mislabeled books, for example, and these errors have made it into consumer hands. I know this because I got some free grading from them and two of the 27 books came back with label errors. One was on a grade, labeled a 9.4 when it was a 6.5. and the other was a numbering error, labeled with the cover number which is not correct and every guide/database and the inside of the book are clear about this error.

Second, as for who this outside body would be. It would be pretty much any individual or group whose sole job would be to maintain the standards and rules by which any grading company would be bound by. Likely it would not be governmental. It most certainly doesn't have to be. All standards organizations stand apart from the businesses that use them for the exact purpose of "policing" these businesses. This maintains the integrity of the standards used. While it does cost money to become accreditted there is almost always a net benefit for companies because clients know that they are buying from a business that follows a set of standards and they must constantly work to maintain their accreditation.

There is also benefit to the company and their workers because it is easy to trace the source of errors and provides a safer work environment for the workers. When standards are obeyed the business produces a consistent product no matter where their facilities are based.

Now of course this all seems a bit much for comics but when everything boils down to grade and the goal is not only to have grading consistent, but have competition in third party grading it is manditory. when any one can put a company together and make all sorts of claims about their service but are ultimately only serving their bottom line, that bottom line threatens the integrity of the standards and makes them pretty much null and void. You also end out with a set of standards that are private and internal that no one can vet.

Yeah comics are supposed to be for kids .... so the common belief goes. But just how many kids do you see that spend big bucks for old comics? your fooling yourself if you think the main bucks for comics and focus of most comics are for kids. Even publishers and movie houses aren't that naive. Back in 2001 a certain group of people thought it was high time for QA in comic grading and few argued that point then and now. Big, big money rides on grade and if you are going to have a quality assurance company to do it why go half-assed about it? the longer it goes the bigger the small problems become and the harder it becomes to get good competition because any new kid on the block only has a half-assed model to go on and they are only going to get criticized for it.

It was unwise of the collecting community to give CGC so much power when their standards are compromised by their bottom line. Basically we have made them too big to fail. Too much money rides on their product and no matter how much we don't like aspects of what they do we will just turn a blind eye to them and hope that some future competition will come in and fix it all. However, that introduces a catch 22 of this new company is going to have to turn over the apple cart to stand out and that will cost money to those all in with the current offering for third party grading. If there is one thing I have learned comic people hate change ... even though they constantly beg for it.
By oxbladder - Last Year
bblack008 (6/8/2013)
mwhelehan (6/8/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013) What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First, I hope you can agree that not all comics are children's entertainment.

Second, their goal is to make money. But there is something to be said for ethical practices. Oxbladder's right. The standards should be third party: such as using the Overstreet guide or some other such set of rules/guidelines that they themselves should not be able to change or modify. If they also tie their pricing to the value of a book it becomes an obvious conflict of interest. I contacted an auction house to get an appraisal for a set of books I was thinking of selling. The woman told me up front that it was against the law for her to tie her fees into the value of the books, that it must be a flat rate. I'm wondering why the same thing does not happen with comic books.

Third, ultimately it is once again the responsibility of us, the consumers and hobbyists, to dictate the prices based on how we spend our money. If we feel that what they are doing is unethical, inappropriate, or exorbitant then we can contact them to let them know how we feel or vote with our wallets (which I believe is much more effective).


I agree that comics aren't all children's entertainment. I used the reference as hyberbole to illustrate that this shouldn't be overseen by some government agency; it's not important enough.

My point was to refute the idea of a "third party" setting standards. How is this to be done? How would this agency be funded? How would they enforce these standards? These things all cost time and money. In addition, it would take clout or power. Else why would CGC/PGX be beholden to this oversight that's being proposed? I just don't see it happening.

Of course, spending habits will always dictate how companies operate. Spending habits are, unfortunately, much easier to control on a micro level than they are on a macro level. You or I could definitely individually boycott a grading company very easily. Getting others to join in, however, is much more difficult.


Standards organizations are funded by accreditted businesses mostly. Yes it costs big money but there is almost always a bigger net benefit to businesses who become accreditted. Just look at ISO for examples. It costs big bucks but it means a much larger clientelle. Standardization is HUGE business and key in legitimizing so much R & D.
By Kitdog - Last Year
needler420 (6/8/2013)
Seems to me PGX does what a toploader can do.


Not really, their holder is very good (I think better than CGC to be honest, it feels stronger), just sucks that to get one you have to send your books to them, I could give a rats stinky butt what the grade was in the books I have from them, I just wanted the holder to put them up on a shelf.
By tbone - Last Year
oxbladder (6/9/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013)
mwhelehan (6/8/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013) What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First, I hope you can agree that not all comics are children's entertainment.

Second, their goal is to make money. But there is something to be said for ethical practices. Oxbladder's right. The standards should be third party: such as using the Overstreet guide or some other such set of rules/guidelines that they themselves should not be able to change or modify. If they also tie their pricing to the value of a book it becomes an obvious conflict of interest. I contacted an auction house to get an appraisal for a set of books I was thinking of selling. The woman told me up front that it was against the law for her to tie her fees into the value of the books, that it must be a flat rate. I'm wondering why the same thing does not happen with comic books.

Third, ultimately it is once again the responsibility of us, the consumers and hobbyists, to dictate the prices based on how we spend our money. If we feel that what they are doing is unethical, inappropriate, or exorbitant then we can contact them to let them know how we feel or vote with our wallets (which I believe is much more effective).


I agree that comics aren't all children's entertainment. I used the reference as hyberbole to illustrate that this shouldn't be overseen by some government agency; it's not important enough.

My point was to refute the idea of a "third party" setting standards. How is this to be done? How would this agency be funded? How would they enforce these standards? These things all cost time and money. In addition, it would take clout or power. Else why would CGC/PGX be beholden to this oversight that's being proposed? I just don't see it happening.

Of course, spending habits will always dictate how companies operate. Spending habits are, unfortunately, much easier to control on a micro level than they are on a macro level. You or I could definitely individually boycott a grading company very easily. Getting others to join in, however, is much more difficult.


Standards organizations are funded by accreditted businesses mostly. Yes it costs big money but there is almost always a bigger net benefit to businesses who become accreditted. Just look at ISO for examples. It costs big bucks but it means a much larger clientelle. Standardization is HUGE business and key in legitimizing so much R & D.


I think either the price guides, or more even better representatives from the major publishers should form a group to oversee and certify graders. Independent enough and their main interest would be keeping integrity in the business. They have the largest cashflow to pay for this and it is an investment into their future.

I am torn on the grading based on value. I think you do need to pay more to grade a more valuable comic, but by paying more you should also get a more thorough grade and description of the comic in question. This also protects them against damaged books. That being said, I don't agree with them charging more based on their grade after the work is finished. Flat rates for value ranges is good enough.

I personally hate the introduction of decimals into grading, has created a silly market that argues the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.2 comic book.
By needler420 - Last Year
Kitdog (6/9/2013)
needler420 (6/8/2013)
Seems to me PGX does what a toploader can do.


Not really, their holder is very good (I think better than CGC to be honest, it feels stronger), just sucks that to get one you have to send your books to them, I could give a rats stinky butt what the grade was in the books I have from them, I just wanted the holder to put them up on a shelf.


Yeah that's exactly what I would use a toploader for. You are over paying just for a case when most of that money is meant to be toward the grade. The labor is going in to the person inspecting the book.

Personally I would just use toploaders and wait for a new type of comic book protection to hit the market. Pretty sure toploaders have just become readily available to the public. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before there is a type of acrylic slab you can buy that it made for a DIY slabbing.

I can't imagine the amount of money that would cost when you're not doing it for a grade but only for cosmetics.

I know the plastic is much more sturdy in acrylic then PCV but I still can't see someone messing a book up in a toploader.
By owls head - Last Year
tbone (6/9/2013)
oxbladder (6/9/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013)
mwhelehan (6/8/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013) What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded? I would argue we don't need another level of bearocracy added to what is, at its core, deciding on the quality of a piece of children's entertainment.

Their job IS to grade books without bias, but they ARE a business corporation. A corporation's primary objective is one thing and one thing only: to bring value to their shareholders. To expect something altruistic is its nature.


First, I hope you can agree that not all comics are children's entertainment.

Second, their goal is to make money. But there is something to be said for ethical practices. Oxbladder's right. The standards should be third party: such as using the Overstreet guide or some other such set of rules/guidelines that they themselves should not be able to change or modify. If they also tie their pricing to the value of a book it becomes an obvious conflict of interest. I contacted an auction house to get an appraisal for a set of books I was thinking of selling. The woman told me up front that it was against the law for her to tie her fees into the value of the books, that it must be a flat rate. I'm wondering why the same thing does not happen with comic books.

Third, ultimately it is once again the responsibility of us, the consumers and hobbyists, to dictate the prices based on how we spend our money. If we feel that what they are doing is unethical, inappropriate, or exorbitant then we can contact them to let them know how we feel or vote with our wallets (which I believe is much more effective).


I agree that comics aren't all children's entertainment. I used the reference as hyberbole to illustrate that this shouldn't be overseen by some government agency; it's not important enough.

My point was to refute the idea of a "third party" setting standards. How is this to be done? How would this agency be funded? How would they enforce these standards? These things all cost time and money. In addition, it would take clout or power. Else why would CGC/PGX be beholden to this oversight that's being proposed? I just don't see it happening.

Of course, spending habits will always dictate how companies operate. Spending habits are, unfortunately, much easier to control on a micro level than they are on a macro level. You or I could definitely individually boycott a grading company very easily. Getting others to join in, however, is much more difficult.


Standards organizations are funded by accreditted businesses mostly. Yes it costs big money but there is almost always a bigger net benefit to businesses who become accreditted. Just look at ISO for examples. It costs big bucks but it means a much larger clientelle. Standardization is HUGE business and key in legitimizing so much R & D.


I think either the price guides, or more even better representatives from the major publishers should form a group to oversee and certify graders. Independent enough and their main interest would be keeping integrity in the business. They have the largest cashflow to pay for this and it is an investment into their future.

I am torn on the grading based on value. I think you do need to pay more to grade a more valuable comic, but by paying more you should also get a more thorough grade and description of the comic in question. This also protects them against damaged books. That being said, I don't agree with them charging more based on their grade after the work is finished. Flat rates for value ranges is good enough.

I personally hate the introduction of decimals into grading, has created a silly market that argues the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.2 comic book.




Yes, those .5's can be excruciating to determine... the old coin-flip

------
By Crispy Duck - Last Year
bblack008 (6/8/2013)
What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded?

ISO Certification.

ISO Product Standards
A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose. We publish over 19 500 International Standards that can be purchased from the ISO store or from our members.

This is the most basic step any enterprise can take to providing solid evidence that they know what the **** they are doing. So far, no comic book grading company has taken any steps toward ensuring that they conform to any kind of basic standards. They reject external criteria and policy policing. That's what makes them a big old joke to me... apart from the fact that they have created a culture of brand worship.
By Kitdog - Last Year
needler420 (6/9/2013)

Yeah that's exactly what I would use a toploader for. You are over paying just for a case when most of that money is meant to be toward the grade. The labor is going in to the person inspecting the book.

Personally I would just use toploaders and wait for a new type of comic book protection to hit the market. Pretty sure toploaders have just become readily available to the public. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before there is a type of acrylic slab you can buy that it made for a DIY slabbing.

I can't imagine the amount of money that would cost when you're not doing it for a grade but only for cosmetics.

I know the plastic is much more sturdy in acrylic then PCV but I still can't see someone messing a book up in a toploader.


Yea but the money does not bother me, I have lost more than it cost to get my books slabbed several times over on a single spin of the roulette wheel so no big deal. Plus top loaders just feel flimsy to me.
By mwhelehan - Last Year
Crispy Duck (6/9/2013)
bblack008 (6/8/2013)
What outside entity, pray tell, would perform this qc? A government agency? A private company? How would it be funded?

ISO Certification.

ISO Product Standards
A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose. We publish over 19 500 International Standards that can be purchased from the ISO store or from our members.

This is the most basic step any enterprise can take to providing solid evidence that they know what the **** they are doing. So far, no comic book grading company has taken any steps toward ensuring that they conform to any kind of basic standards. They reject external criteria and policy policing. That's what makes them a big old joke to me... apart from the fact that they have created a culture of brand worship.


Hmmmm... perhaps one should look into starting an actual standard and impartial grading company.
By bblack008 - Last Year
oxbladder (6/9/2013)Standards organizations are funded by accreditted businesses mostly. Yes it costs big money but there is almost always a bigger net benefit to businesses who become accreditted. Just look at ISO for examples. It costs big bucks but it means a much larger clientelle. Standardization is HUGE business and key in legitimizing so much R & D.


R&D is a billion dollar (if not more) business with tons and tons of competition. Grading comics is small potatoes with only 2 major companies, and one of these companies is so discredited that it's become more of a niche for high-grade modern comics. So we have a monopoly in comics grading.

CGC will never, ever, ever submit to an accreditation process without some major (and I mean major) change in the back issue market. They just don't have to. People have no place else to go to get their books graded that will make the grade nearly universally accepted. There is no motivator. Why would a monopoly care if some external agency accredited them? How would that make the company stand out? It just doesn't make business sense without a major shake-up to the industry.
By oxbladder - Last Year
bblack you are right and that is why I mentioned the part about too much money being tied up in the whole grading thing. Comic folks don't like change which is why we settle for so much stuff that we say we don't like. Change might upset the whole balance and that balance has a big pile of cash on it.

There is nothing wrong with aspiring for more and spelling out why. As youare no doubt aware I hold many differing views from the comic community and since all things to grading are subjective there is nothing wrong with these differing opinions. My view on dry pressing being restoration, for example. Since I have no issues with professional restoration and accept it as a necessary part of thee hobby I have no issues with pressing. Like so many restoration techniques that are abused I just see zero needs for applying any technique to a book either already in high grade or not in imminent danger of fading to history. Rather than message a book into a higher grade it always amazes me that such a fragile object has survived in high grade ... especially books prior to 1970. All this non-restoration restoration has jaded our views and respect for the books themselves.
By Crispy Duck - Last Year
bblack008 (6/9/2013)
Grading comics is small potatoes

But that's the thing right there. It isn't small potatoes. It's had such an impact on what is a comparatively innocent and docile hobby. Millions and millions of dollars worth of "added value" has been injected into the market by these brands. Even guides like CPG now include "graded" values. Two decades ago, that very concept would have been laughable and widely rejected by a collector base that did not in any way, shape or form "value" what were then MODERN comic books in any sort of secondary market sense.

Today? $1,200 for Peter Panzerfaust #1. Brand new comic book. Totally untested. Rumors of its future abound, but nothing has happened yet.

$1,200.

CGC.

9.8.

Would we see these values without the race to the top of the census knocking at everyone's door? Would we be enslaved to the whims of the slab junkies who value plastic more than art? Would there even BE a secondary market for modern comic books? All questions that directly relate to these "small potatoes" enterprises.

And bblack, I'm not saying that anything you've said is wrong. This is merely a counterpoint that goes straight to the inherent lack of control over something that has impacted this hobby more than anything else has since we first began seeing massive values attached to key classics. It's big business... and no one is monitoring anything.
By nevermind - Last Year
I took it upon myself to send the 3 same books to both PGX and CGC. I personally like graded books, but found CGC's pricing and turnaround times too high so I decided to see if there really is a difference between the two.

PGX pros - Cheaper, faster,

CGC pros - demands a higher dollar value if sold, better looking label.

Book 1 - Tales to Astonish 66

Graded exactly the same. Both caught the trim. No complaints.

Book 2 - Incredible Hulk 116

PGX graded too harsh IMO.

Book 3 - Detective Comics #476

PGX completely missed the missing centerfold and graded it a bit harsher. I asked for PGX's grading notes with the associated number for this and two days later I got an answer back- they were having trouble locating it in there system. Was told they would get back to me. Haven't heard anything back as of yet. -Steve
By Kitdog - Last Year
nevermind (6/10/2013)
I took it upon myself to send the 3 same books to both PGX and CGC. I personally like graded books, but found CGC's pricing and turnaround times too high so I decided to see if there really is a difference between the two.

PGX pros - Cheaper, faster,

CGC pros - demands a higher dollar value if sold, better looking label.

PGX completely missed the missing centerfold and graded it a bit harsher. I asked for PGX's grading notes with the associated number for this and two days later I got an answer back- they were having trouble locating it in there system. Was told they would get back to me. Haven't heard anything back as of yet. -Steve


It looks like PGX graded a little bit harder than CGC. But they are both in the ballpark so that is good. I would rather have the lower grade and a note on the missing centerfold than the green label (I hate green labels think they are BS unless for an un-witnessed autograph)
By oxbladder - Last Year
Where you will find a bigger difference is usually in lower grades. PGX tends to give lower grade higher final grades than CGC.

How the flock did PGX miss the missing centerfold? Both grades on that are a joke ... IMO. Whether missing story or not the books is 4 pages short. Ugh.
By bblack008 - Last Year
oxbladder (6/9/2013)
bblack you are right and that is why I mentioned the part about too much money being tied up in the whole grading thing. Comic folks don't like change which is why we settle for so much stuff that we say we don't like. Change might upset the whole balance and that balance has a big pile of cash on it.

There is nothing wrong with aspiring for more and spelling out why. As youare no doubt aware I hold many differing views from the comic community and since all things to grading are subjective there is nothing wrong with these differing opinions. My view on dry pressing being restoration, for example. Since I have no issues with professional restoration and accept it as a necessary part of thee hobby I have no issues with pressing. Like so many restoration techniques that are abused I just see zero needs for applying any technique to a book either already in high grade or not in imminent danger of fading to history. Rather than message a book into a higher grade it always amazes me that such a fragile object has survived in high grade ... especially books prior to 1970. All this non-restoration restoration has jaded our views and respect for the books themselves.


I agree that differing viewpoints are good, ox. We don't need an army of rank-and-file yes-men in the hobby alone. We need differing opinions, viewpoints and experiences. In short, we need diversity. Of course I agree with you there. And I never said I buy into CGC as the end-all be-all of comic grading and value-setting. They are a flawed system; we do need diversity in the grading scene. With the present landscape, however, I just don't see it happening. At least not for some time.

Of course, even with our disagreements (hopefully civil), differing tastes, and life experiences, it is our similarities that bring us together: a love of comics, both collecting and reading; I think it's important to remember our connection among all the noise.
By bblack008 - Last Year
Kitdog (6/10/2013)
nevermind (6/10/2013)
I took it upon myself to send the 3 same books to both PGX and CGC. I personally like graded books, but found CGC's pricing and turnaround times too high so I decided to see if there really is a difference between the two.

PGX pros - Cheaper, faster,

CGC pros - demands a higher dollar value if sold, better looking label.

PGX completely missed the missing centerfold and graded it a bit harsher. I asked for PGX's grading notes with the associated number for this and two days later I got an answer back- they were having trouble locating it in there system. Was told they would get back to me. Haven't heard anything back as of yet. -Steve


It looks like PGX graded a little bit harder than CGC. But they are both in the ballpark so that is good. I would rather have the lower grade and a note on the missing centerfold than the green label (I hate green labels think they are BS unless for an un-witnessed autograph)


I absolutely abhor the green label for un-witnessed autograph. Why penalize a book that book because (most likely) the owner had the creator sign it? Just treat it like a defect and be done with it or, better yet, make a note on the label of it and otherwise ignore it.
By bblack008 - Last Year
Crispy Duck (6/9/2013)
bblack008 (6/9/2013)
Grading comics is small potatoes

But that's the thing right there. It isn't small potatoes. It's had such an impact on what is a comparatively innocent and docile hobby. Millions and millions of dollars worth of "added value" has been injected into the market by these brands. Even guides like CPG now include "graded" values. Two decades ago, that very concept would have been laughable and widely rejected by a collector base that did not in any way, shape or form "value" what were then MODERN comic books in any sort of secondary market sense.

Today? $1,200 for Peter Panzerfaust #1. Brand new comic book. Totally untested. Rumors of its future abound, but nothing has happened yet.

$1,200.

CGC.

9.8.

Would we see these values without the race to the top of the census knocking at everyone's door? Would we be enslaved to the whims of the slab junkies who value plastic more than art? Would there even BE a secondary market for modern comic books? All questions that directly relate to these "small potatoes" enterprises.

And bblack, I'm not saying that anything you've said is wrong. This is merely a counterpoint that goes straight to the inherent lack of control over something that has impacted this hobby more than anything else has since we first began seeing massive values attached to key classics. It's big business... and no one is monitoring anything.


I agree with you, Crispy. I meant that it's small potatoes in comparison to most industries that have the kind of certification you're talking about. And less important. I realize big numbers get thrown around, but what is the importance of comic grading compared to, say, vehicle safety features? Or the safeness of food?

Don't get me wrong, I love the funny-books and would absolutely love to see more standardization in grading (or at the least a public release of standards used), but it's not as important as oversight on other industries.
By nevermind - Last Year
Kitdog (6/10/2013)
nevermind (6/10/2013)
I took it upon myself to send the 3 same books to both PGX and CGC. I personally like graded books, but found CGC's pricing and turnaround times too high so I decided to see if there really is a difference between the two.

PGX pros - Cheaper, faster,

CGC pros - demands a higher dollar value if sold, better looking label.

PGX completely missed the missing centerfold and graded it a bit harsher. I asked for PGX's grading notes with the associated number for this and two days later I got an answer back- they were having trouble locating it in there system. Was told they would get back to me. Haven't heard anything back as of yet. -Steve


It looks like PGX graded a little bit harder than CGC. But they are both in the ballpark so that is good. I would rather have the lower grade and a note on the missing centerfold than the green label (I hate green labels think they are BS unless for an un-witnessed autograph)


You can say ballpark, but 9.0 and 9.4. That .4 on a silver age book is a big deal. And as for rather having the lower grade without the note on the Detective, yeah I guess, but I would get pretty pissed if I bought an expensive PGX 8.0 that I eventually found out they missed the missing centerfold on when they graded it. -Steve
By nevermind - Last Year
oxbladder (6/10/2013)


How the flock did PGX miss the missing centerfold? Both grades on that are a joke ... IMO. Whether missing story or not the books is 4 pages short. Ugh.


I agree that both grades are a joke, but missing the centerfold is far worse that giving it a green label and at least noting it. -Steve
By owls head - Last Year
nevermind (6/11/2013)
oxbladder (6/10/2013)


How the flock did PGX miss the missing centerfold? Both grades on that are a joke ... IMO. Whether missing story or not the books is 4 pages short. Ugh.


I agree that both grades are a joke, but missing the centerfold is far worse that giving it a green label and at least noting it. -Steve


That doesn't speak well for PGX, missing, the missing centerfold! My God

---------------
By Bumblebeer23 - Last Year
Conclusion?
By dregan - Last Year
It's possible that QA has gone down with CGC as well. Just received a new 52 Batman #1 sketch that should have been a 9.4 (1 small corner dings, 1 small crease on the spine and a indention on the top cover on the spine) from CGC with 9.8 grade, and the Justice League #1 sketch that I graded as a 9.8 was a 9.4. Guess I'm going to need to buy the notes to see WTH happened there.
By oxbladder - Last Year
nevermind (6/11/2013)
oxbladder (6/10/2013)


How the flock did PGX miss the missing centerfold? Both grades on that are a joke ... IMO. Whether missing story or not the books is 4 pages short. Ugh.


I agree that both grades are a joke, but missing the centerfold is far worse that giving it a green label and at least noting it. -Steve


No disagreement there!
By oxbladder - Last Year
dregan (6/11/2013)
It's possible that QA has gone down with CGC as well. Just received a new 52 Batman #1 sketch that should have been a 9.4 (1 small corner dings, 1 small crease on the spine and a indention on the top cover on the spine) from CGC with 9.8 grade, and the Justice League #1 sketch that I graded as a 9.8 was a 9.4. Guess I'm going to need to buy the notes to see WTH happened there.


It is entirely possible. However, a few store owners here and myself think stuff like this could be more of a fatigue issue. By this I mean it is really difficult to spend many hours a day five, or maybe more, days a week grading ... or any other focused task. Though I don't know how they break their day up, the longer you spend grading the more likely you will miss things.

Another problem could be a sliding scale through the day. Say you start your day grading and you get a big batch of stuff that all grades out at 8.0-9.0. then your book comes up and it look much better than all the one before it. So you get a grade that reflects that marked difference. Inversely, say they get a huge whack of stuff that all grades out better than 9.6. then your book comes up and it is noticeably a lower grade. Bang! You get a 9.2 or lower.

Remember, not only is there no hard physical standard they go by but they also grade on a sliding scale based on the age of a book. This explains why you get such a crazy range of grades coming out of both companies.

I really don't like how the sliding scale is now accepted. Right up until CGC opened it's doors I don't know one single person that accepted a sliding scale ( or production errors). when I was learning how to grade I had many a dealer chastize me if they thought or spoke of a sliding scale. If you read about all the complaints about sellers on forums most are about how raw grading is way off and you should notice that people selling raw books are NOT allowed to get away with the same age sliding scale, qualified grading, giving passes to production flaws, etc.

Now there is nothing wrong with giving slightly less weight to production errors common at different periods of time. There should be some weight to them. It may mean certain high grades are even less common but that is the way it really is out there. Over time production has changed. At different times it was exceedingly hard, to virtually impossible to get that magical 10.0 (or whatever). Now though so much more money is attached to the grade that people will do anything to get that grade even thing that were greatly scorned upon right up to 2001.

now I don't blame CGC or PGX for this they are only tools in our arsenal, but they sure don't try and stand up against it. If you read the rational for most of the exceptions CGC makes it is supposedly about being fair to the book(s). Books are inanimate. They don't have feelings. So what they are really doing is rationalizinghow they have thrown out the rule book so that we can get more money for a book that, if raw, would never, ever be allowed to hold the grade they give it. That is a double standard and I know way too many good people (and good graders) getting burned by this. IMHO professional grading has destroyed any semblance of standards this hobby had.

/rant
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
This is like trying to find the answer of how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Roll pop the world may never know.
The question here is really if your going to get something graded what is your intentions. If you just want it in a rock hard case then send it to PGX. If your looking to resell it send it to CGC. If your looking for autograph verification send it to CGC under SS rules. Both have their problems and one is not better than the other except for resell value.
By Michael923 - Last Year
reddwarf6662 (6/13/2013)
This is like trying to find the answer of how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Roll pop the world may never know.
The question here is really if your going to get something graded what is your intentions. If you just want it in a rock hard case then send it to PGX. If your looking to resell it send it to CGC. If your looking for autograph verification send it to CGC under SS rules. Both have their problems and one is not better than the other except for resell value.


Studies have shwn it can take anywhere from 144-411 licks.
By rowden - Last Year
Michael923 (6/14/2013)
reddwarf6662 (6/13/2013)
This is like trying to find the answer of how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Roll pop the world may never know.
The question here is really if your going to get something graded what is your intentions. If you just want it in a rock hard case then send it to PGX. If your looking to resell it send it to CGC. If your looking for autograph verification send it to CGC under SS rules. Both have their problems and one is not better than the other except for resell value.


Studies have shwn it can take anywhere from 144-411 licks.


It's 3. The owl wouldn't lie.
By oxbladder - Last Year
rowden (6/14/2013)
The owl wouldn't lie.


He would if you paid him enough Wink
By rowden - Last Year
oxbladder (6/14/2013)
rowden (6/14/2013)
The owl wouldn't lie.


He would if you paid him enough Wink


Again, your harsh words shatter my child like faith, bunny boy...
By oxbladder - Last Year
MUAHAHAHA!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5563o7zxi1r451jro1_500.jpg
By Cody - Last Year
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.
By dregan - Last Year
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I think this has more to do with the vendor's opening bid being below what I see raw copies of the same book going for. There is also the possibility that a lot of people do like I do on their eBay searches, typing in something like "Walking Dead 5 CGC", etc. Some vendors selling PGX will add "9.8 PGX NOT CGC" to the title so it shows up on searches like I run. I definitely would have bid on that PGX book because I need #5 for my collection.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I find it crazy how people would pay double for the same book if its graded through CGC vs. PGX. Its a no brainer for sellers on which services they should go to for grading but for buyers with no intentions of reselling, I don't see any reason not to go through PGX.
By nevermind - Last Year
dmting (6/15/2013)
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I find it crazy how people would pay double for the same book if its graded through CGC vs. PGX. Its a no brainer for sellers on which services they should go to for grading but for buyers with no intentions of reselling, I don't see any reason not to go through PGX.


Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
nevermind (6/15/2013)
dmting (6/15/2013)
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I find it crazy how people would pay double for the same book if its graded through CGC vs. PGX. Its a no brainer for sellers on which services they should go to for grading but for buyers with no intentions of reselling, I don't see any reason not to go through PGX.


Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve


I thought the issues about PGX about missing centerfolds, clipped coupons, etc. not being listed was on books they graded years ago and that the grading has been improved. Was the issue about the missing centerfold that you mentioned something recently graded?
By nevermind - Last Year
dmting (6/15/2013)
nevermind (6/15/2013)
dmting (6/15/2013)
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I find it crazy how people would pay double for the same book if its graded through CGC vs. PGX. Its a no brainer for sellers on which services they should go to for grading but for buyers with no intentions of reselling, I don't see any reason not to go through PGX.


Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve


I thought the issues about PGX about missing centerfolds, clipped coupons, etc. not being listed was on books they graded years ago and that the grading has been improved. Was the issue about the missing centerfold that you mentioned something recently graded?


The graded date is on the label. -Steve
By spruce213 - Last Year
dregan (6/11/2013)
It's possible that QA has gone down with CGC as well. Just received a new 52 Batman #1 sketch that should have been a 9.4 (1 small corner dings, 1 small crease on the spine and a indention on the top cover on the spine) from CGC with 9.8 grade, and the Justice League #1 sketch that I graded as a 9.8 was a 9.4. Guess I'm going to need to buy the notes to see WTH happened there.


Buy the notes? Really? They charge you for the notes? Now that's a joke.
By oxbladder - Last Year
spruce213 (6/16/2013)
dregan (6/11/2013)
It's possible that QA has gone down with CGC as well. Just received a new 52 Batman #1 sketch that should have been a 9.4 (1 small corner dings, 1 small crease on the spine and a indention on the top cover on the spine) from CGC with 9.8 grade, and the Justice League #1 sketch that I graded as a 9.8 was a 9.4. Guess I'm going to need to buy the notes to see WTH happened there.


Buy the notes? Really? They charge you for the notes? Now that's a joke.


They started charging last year for the grading notes. Imagine having to pay twice for a product you bought. IMO you should be given a copy of the grader's notes.
By Cody - Last Year
Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve


Steve if your talking about PGX, I can say CGC makes grading mistakes to:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marvel-Premiere-1972-15-CGC-9-6-0702571003-/310679908621?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4855f7310d

Also looking at the books that I own,CGC tends to grade silver age books higher then their modern counter parts.
I don't have any pgx graded silver age books so I don't know if they do the same thing.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
nevermind (6/15/2013)
dmting (6/15/2013)
nevermind (6/15/2013)
dmting (6/15/2013)
Cody (6/14/2013)
It is crazy to see how much the prices vary for essentially the same book.

CGC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-WALKING-DEAD-5-CGC-9-8-NM-MT-SIGNED-BY-ROBERT-KIRKMAN-AND-TONY-MOORE-/230946654910?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35c57e4abe

PGX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WALKING-DEAD-5-PGX-NM-MT-9-8-SIGNED-BY-KIRKMAN-MOORE-IMAGE-COMICS-FEB-2004-/310682742833?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4856227031&nma=true&si=vh89xCOjeh3ELerNP%252B4s%252Biy4SaA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Now there are even higher "buy it now" wins for the cgc copy. But I wanted to show 2 auction examples.
Besides the label and the signature placement what is different? It has to be something right for $200 or so
price difference.
I am in a pickle as a collector do I want the lower price of PGX? Or the higher resale value of CGC.


I find it crazy how people would pay double for the same book if its graded through CGC vs. PGX. Its a no brainer for sellers on which services they should go to for grading but for buyers with no intentions of reselling, I don't see any reason not to go through PGX.


Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve


I thought the issues about PGX about missing centerfolds, clipped coupons, etc. not being listed was on books they graded years ago and that the grading has been improved. Was the issue about the missing centerfold that you mentioned something recently graded?


The graded date is on the label. -Steve


That wasn't my question. What I didn't know was whether this is still a problem or if it was something that was more of an issue in the past. I checked another forum and see that this problem, missing centerfold not being caught, still exist even as of last month.
By nevermind - Last Year
Cody (6/16/2013)
Maybe because they grade silver age 9.4s at 9.0. Or maybe because they miss things, like missing centerfolds. -Steve


Steve if your talking about PGX, I can say CGC makes grading mistakes to:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marvel-Premiere-1972-15-CGC-9-6-0702571003-/310679908621?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4855f7310d

Also looking at the books that I own,CGC tends to grade silver age books higher then their modern counter parts.
I don't have any pgx graded silver age books so I don't know if they do the same thing.


I don't know if I would consider that a mistake, just one of there better customers getting a bump in grade lol. And yes, they seem go easier on the SA books than the modern books, but they also seem to hit certyain titles harder. -Steve
By spruce213 - Last Year
With that regards, CGC seems to be given a pass though their shady practices are just as highlighted as PGX's mistakes. CGC from what I hear and through reliable sources, have been over grading for their "friends" and have saturated the market with books that do not deserve their grades.
By nevermind - Last Year
spruce213 (6/16/2013)
With that regards, CGC seems to be given a pass though their shady practices are just as highlighted as PGX's mistakes. CGC from what I hear and through reliable sources, have been over grading for their "friends" and have saturated the market with books that do not deserve their grades.


This may be true, but as a Joe Shmoe I sent the same three books to both companies not to be cynical, but because I wanted to save money and time on my high grade books because I wanted to compare both companies. I really wanted them to come back the same because I would have liked to save time and money, but PGX failed the test. -Steve
By bblack008 - Last Year
nevermind (6/16/2013)
spruce213 (6/16/2013)
With that regards, CGC seems to be given a pass though their shady practices are just as highlighted as PGX's mistakes. CGC from what I hear and through reliable sources, have been over grading for their "friends" and have saturated the market with books that do not deserve their grades.


This may be true, but as a Joe Shmoe I sent the same three books to both companies not to be cynical, but because I wanted to save money and time on my high grade books because I wanted to compare both companies. I really wanted them to come back the same because I would have liked to save time and money, but PGX failed the test. -Steve


'Preciate you sharing your little experiment with us. It's interesting to see the differences on identical books rather than someone saying one is better than the other without actual empirical evidence.
By Michael923 - Last Year
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.
By rowden - Last Year
nevermind (6/16/2013)
spruce213 (6/16/2013)
With that regards, CGC seems to be given a pass though their shady practices are just as highlighted as PGX's mistakes. CGC from what I hear and through reliable sources, have been over grading for their "friends" and have saturated the market with books that do not deserve their grades.


This may be true, but as a Joe Shmoe I sent the same three books to both companies not to be cynical, but because I wanted to save money and time on my high grade books because I wanted to compare both companies. I really wanted them to come back the same because I would have liked to save time and money, but PGX failed the test. -Steve


How about a true test. Send the SAME book to BOTH COMPANIES. CGC it, crack it, then send it to PGX.
By Kitdog - Last Year
rowden (6/17/2013)


How about a true test. Send the SAME book to BOTH COMPANIES. CGC it, crack it, then send it to PGX.


I think that is what he did, Just kept the label from the PGX as reference.
By nevermind - Last Year
Kitdog (6/17/2013)
rowden (6/17/2013)


How about a true test. Send the SAME book to BOTH COMPANIES. CGC it, crack it, then send it to PGX.


I think that is what he did, Just kept the label from the PGX as reference.


Correct Kit. -Steve
By nevermind - Last Year
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve
By nevermind - Last Year
bblack008 (6/16/2013)
nevermind (6/16/2013)
spruce213 (6/16/2013)
With that regards, CGC seems to be given a pass though their shady practices are just as highlighted as PGX's mistakes. CGC from what I hear and through reliable sources, have been over grading for their "friends" and have saturated the market with books that do not deserve their grades.


This may be true, but as a Joe Shmoe I sent the same three books to both companies not to be cynical, but because I wanted to save money and time on my high grade books because I wanted to compare both companies. I really wanted them to come back the same because I would have liked to save time and money, but PGX failed the test. -Steve


'Preciate you sharing your little experiment with us. It's interesting to see the differences on identical books rather than someone saying one is better than the other without actual empirical evidence.


No problem. -Steve
By rowden - Last Year
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Kitdog (6/17/2013)
rowden (6/17/2013)


How about a true test. Send the SAME book to BOTH COMPANIES. CGC it, crack it, then send it to PGX.


I think that is what he did, Just kept the label from the PGX as reference.


Correct Kit. -Steve


Went back to the pics, I see it now.
By tbone - Last Year
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


This comment really bugs me...there is no difference between a 9.2 and a 9.0...heck even a 9.4 vs a 9.0 there isn't a difference worth mentioning. This is why I can't stand the current method of grading. They are both VF/MN end of story.

The mirco grading market that this has created is just silly...nothing against you Steve, just against the market and system that has been created by this. Nothing worse than giving a bunch of us geeks a minute, micro cause to argue over.
By spruce213 - Last Year
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


While others feel they don't grade hard enough.
By spruce213 - Last Year
tbone (6/17/2013)
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


This comment really bugs me...there is no difference between a 9.2 and a 9.0...heck even a 9.4 vs a 9.0 there isn't a difference worth mentioning. This is why I can't stand the current method of grading. They are both VF/MN end of story.

The mirco grading market that this has created is just silly...nothing against you Steve, just against the market and system that has been created by this. Nothing worse than giving a bunch of us geeks a minute, micro cause to argue over.


AgreedWink
By owls head - Last Year
spruce213 (6/17/2013)
tbone (6/17/2013)
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


This comment really bugs me...there is no difference between a 9.2 and a 9.0...heck even a 9.4 vs a 9.0 there isn't a difference worth mentioning. This is why I can't stand the current method of grading. They are both VF/MN end of story.

The mirco grading market that this has created is just silly...nothing against you Steve, just against the market and system that has been created by this. Nothing worse than giving a bunch of us geeks a minute, micro cause to argue over.


AgreedWink


Yeap... I second that emotion... a little obsessive/compulsive 9.4 9.2 really?
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


Or maybe CGC is so backed up with comics to grade that they rush when grading it so the quality of their grading has gone down over the past few years. Maybe the grader at CGC is being to leniant and since PGX has less submissions and more time to focus on grading you get the more accurate grade. You paid for an outsider's opinion and that is what they gave you. Either way do you want me to come over to your house kiss your comic's booboos and send it back in hopefully that will make it all better and you will get a 10.0. I have milk and cookies if you want them too.
By nevermind - Last Year
reddwarf6662 (6/17/2013)
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


Or maybe CGC is so backed up with comics to grade that they rush when grading it so the quality of their grading has gone down over the past few years. Maybe the grader at CGC is being to leniant and since PGX has less submissions and more time to focus on grading you get the more accurate grade. You paid for an outsider's opinion and that is what they gave you. Either way do you want me to come over to your house kiss your comic's booboos and send it back in hopefully that will make it all better and you will get a 10.0. I have milk and cookies if you want them too.


**** the milk and cookies I'll take beer and whiskey. But, as always this has gotten a little off track. Yes I thought PGX graded the Hulk book too harsh. Maybe PGX has more time and therefore the grade is more accurate, but considering they missed a missing ****ing centerfold (which is the real issue here) I'm gonna go ahead and assume they do not give said attention. Thanks for the booboo kiss offer anyways. I'll keep it in mind if I step on my dick.
By firebirdta - Last Year
It's been quite some time since I posted here, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth!

I've bought graded books and had a few graded myself!, since Graded Comic Books have hit the markets. (I've also had action figures/toys graded as well! ...but alias that's a different rant!)

And I'm just totally sick of the graded comics market!!!!

Getting comics graded (and mostly.... by internet sellers to make a huge profit!!!) is a bunch of B.S. and CGC is just helping that market exist and flourish!!!

Their (CGC) grading of comics is a joke! ...I sent the same comic to them about a year and a half ago 3 times!!! (it was 3 copies of the same issue of a comic that I had a stack of about 20 mint copies of!!!) and I was using a different mailing address each time!!!, by the way!!! ...and they received 3 different grades!!! ...which were way different from each other!!! WTF???

Now I've been buying comics since the late 1970's!, and I feel pretty damn confident in my grading abilities. And in my opinion I'm pretty spot on with my grading.

That being said, the first couple of issues that I sent them that first year, received the exact same grade that I would have gave them! BUT since those issues that I sent them that first year, they have really dropped the ball with their grading. What the **** happened???

PGX has NEVER had that good a name at all, so I've never used them.

The problem that the grading/encapsulating is creating will have long detrimental effect on the market that will affect all of us eventually. It's just a matter of time!

I've seen CGC graded comics on ebay that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, much less buy them! ....I'm so leery now of buying graded comics or getting comics graded, it's pathetic!

It really saddens me!

-FBTA
By oxbladder - Last Year
owls head (6/17/2013)
spruce213 (6/17/2013)
tbone (6/17/2013)
nevermind (6/17/2013)
Michael923 (6/16/2013)
I dont understand what people are saying with PGX grades too harshly. If I sent in a book, I would want the true grade, and if it is lower then so be it.


I felt the book was a 9.4 or 9.2 worse case. PGX gave it a 9.0. I think they grade too harsh. I don't believe it to be the true grade. -Steve


This comment really bugs me...there is no difference between a 9.2 and a 9.0...heck even a 9.4 vs a 9.0 there isn't a difference worth mentioning. This is why I can't stand the current method of grading. They are both VF/MN end of story.

The mirco grading market that this has created is just silly...nothing against you Steve, just against the market and system that has been created by this. Nothing worse than giving a bunch of us geeks a minute, micro cause to argue over.


AgreedWink


Yeap... I second that emotion... a little obsessive/compulsive 9.4 9.2 really?




I DISagree. The reason the grading scales have changed over time is exactly because people are picky. Some people more than others. If you take a look at graded book you will see the difference and it is noticeable. Anyone that can't discern a 9.4 from a 9.0 osn't taking the time and certainly are taking their chances with their reputation. There has, for a long time, been these really fine gradations. Before the 100 point scale there was all sorts of name grading scales chopped finer and finer each time out. Then there was the 100 point scale, which was great because you could just count out the defects, but was a pain when it came to how do you price the a jump of one single point?


I have dealt with many an anal collector. Some are okay to deal with others.... less so ... but hey are not uncommon which is why we have grading scales witj finely divided high grades.
By voxigenboy - Last Year
Lately I've been concerned with keeping comics well protected, but not necessarily sending them off to be graded. I keep them in 2mm MyLites & then drop them into 4mm Mylars. Double the bagging? Crazy? I sorta think so....

Would like to find decent cases to put the comics into instead.
By oxbladder - Last Year
voxigenboy (6/17/2013)
Lately I've been concerned with keeping comics well protected, but not necessarily sending them off to be graded. I keep them in 2mm MyLites & then drop them into 4mm Mylars. Double the bagging? Crazy? I sorta think so....

Would like to find decent cases to put the comics into instead.


Double bagging is pretty pointless.

If you are looking for a hard case none of the one out there are considered archival and will not prevent damage any more than a Mylar or Mylite and a full or half back. In fact, you may damage a book easier in most hard cases.
By voxigenboy - Last Year
I was still planning to keep comics in 2mm mylites & then possibly put into a hard case. I'm fine with the mylars, was just hoping for something sturdy to use in addition.

I accidentally bent a few comics recently that were in mylites & that's what got me thinking about hard cases. I'm thinking I'll just get some cheapo top loaders.
By 44_mag_de - Last Year
voxigenboy (6/18/2013)
I was still planning to keep comics in 2mm mylites & then possibly put into a hard case. I'm fine with the mylars, was just hoping for something sturdy to use in addition.

I accidentally bent a few comics recently that were in mylites & that's what got me thinking about hard cases. I'm thinking I'll just get some cheapo top loaders.


Thats how I have them, mylites in a toploader. If I think the book needs extra support then I'll throw a board behind the mylite but not inside with the book.
By Michael923 - Last Year
The difference in a 9.0 and a 9.2 is just a little harder dinged corner in all fairness. Nothing too major, but I see why people think there should be an extra interval there. I think you think it isnt the right grade all because it isnt the grade you wanted, which is completely understandable. Hell you could send it in to each company again, but as a new submission, and see what is recieved this time, it may be higher or stay the same and if you are unlucky, it could be lower. But there is no way to tell what the grade of a book is, and I dont see the point of a grade on a book. I ,ean you can look at a book and see if it is apealing to look at, if it is bent or has creases and dings. Getting comics graded is only so collectors can see what their book could be worth at the most (hell it sometimes exceeds guide prices) and if it is worth selling to make a profit or the security of knowing that if they thought of selling it they could know a rough estimate of what they would recieve. It also gives buyers a reasuarance to know what exactly they are buying so that they will not spend over guide ( unless of course it is a book they really want or they feel the guide is innacurate about.) Grading is completely subjective and it will vary slightly amongst any third party persons you present it to or is presented to. You could send a book to CGC to find its value ( because thats what you do when you get a book graded) and recieve one grade (for the sake of this expirament we will say an 8.5.) You can take that same book and submit it under a new submission, same tier and all, and it go to two different graders and they see the book as an 8.0. Now youre probably not going to be happy with this, but that grade was the combined opinion of two people you dont know on an item you sent the just for poops n giggles. I say if you dont like what is recieved, start your own grading system and get your own case. Take all of your books and put them in one and inflate the market with raised grades because you are the owner if you want. But you cant complain when the opinion of two individuals (which you paid for) is not what you wanted to hear and are unhappy with the turnout.
By oxbladder - Last Year
voxigenboy (6/18/2013)
I was still planning to keep comics in 2mm mylites & then possibly put into a hard case. I'm fine with the mylars, was just hoping for something sturdy to use in addition.

I accidentally bent a few comics recently that were in mylites & that's what got me thinking about hard cases. I'm thinking I'll just get some cheapo top loaders.


or take a look for those cases that look like casette cases for comics. I don' t know if they would fit a bagged comic.
By nevermind - Last Year
I use mylite 2 with full backs and my books seem to be well protected. -Steve
By thatjerk - Last Year
nevermind (6/10/2013)

Book 3 - Detective Comics #476

PGX completely missed the missing centerfold and graded it a bit harsher. I asked for PGX's grading notes with the associated number for this and two days later I got an answer back- they were having trouble locating it in there system. Was told they would get back to me. Haven't heard anything back as of yet. -Steve


You missed your chance. What you should have done was film yourself taking the book out of the PGX case and feign shock that the centerfold was missing and that they must have changed the book you sent in for another one. And posted it on Youtube. You might have got your money back on it. I'm surprised no one's ever thought of doing that before.
By voxigenboy - Last Year
did you include the extra "tip" in your submission to PGX? that's your best bet to get a higher grade Tongue
By masterwyn - Last Year
tjanse (3/21/2012)
Here is some reading pgx releated.

http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/


Everyone should note that this site has not been updated in 7 years. I'm sure that PGX had some issues early on, but they have come a long way since 2006.
By masterwyn - Last Year
dirtybird78 (3/21/2012)
wow thanks for the info.. GREAT LINK.. I would advise everyone check this out before buying any graded comics.. it makes me want to go inspect mine a little closer.. infact i think i will go do that now...


7 year old information does not a great link make.
By masterwyn - Last Year
To throw in my two cents. I just purchased my first PGX comic off of eBay. I got it for less than the raw value as people still hate on PGX. I have since seen the same grade book from CGC sell for twice what I paid for the PGX version, and after comparing the images. The copy I have looks to be in better shape. I have no doubts that CGC would grade this book higher than PGX did in 2010. Still I will keep it in the PGX slab and laugh every time I see someone buying a CGC book for double what I paid for the PGX book.
By pmadreenter - Last Year
Why does it so often happen that the people who post comments defending PGX are new members with no posts in the forums except their PGX posts?
By oxbladder - Last Year
masterwyn (12/9/2013)
tjanse (3/21/2012)
Here is some reading pgx releated.

http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/


Everyone should note that this site has not been updated in 7 years. I'm sure that PGX had some issues early on, but they have come a long way since 2006.


No they haven't they never once acted on recommendations, they never paid for work done, they still accept submissions from scammers, their qc still bites, they are still horrible at grading mid and low grade books, etc.

But go ahead and keep supporting them if you like.
By reddwarf6662 - Last Year
pmadreenter (12/9/2013)
Why does it so often happen that the people who post comments defending PGX are new members with no posts in the forums except their PGX posts?

HaHaHa. I hear you Pmad. In my opinion PGX is a one man operation based on when I have had to call them in the past only Daniel answers the phone. I am not saying CGC is perfect and at times i question the modern grading based on what has came back lately to me. I think they were to nice to me on these two here.

By J. Howlett - 10 Months Ago
Hi, everybody. New guy here, and I apologize off the bat for such a long post to a dead forum. Found this forum while trying to decide on whether or not get a few books graded that I got off of eBay and at a local comic shop for my son. He's 5, and twice a month we visit the shop and he gets to fill up his box with books (makes him feel like a big boy). I picked up a few books that I'd like him to have when he's a bit older and a bit more responsible. I figured I'd also try and make them sort of an investment for him.
Now I read the entire 21 pages here, and haha, I'm still on the fence as to if I should get them graded or not. Nothing really expensive. Just some Wolverine Origins and Origin I and II variants. He loves Wolverine like his daddy does.
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?
By oxbladder - 10 Months Ago
J. Howlett (1/29/2014)
Hi, everybody. New guy here, and I apologize off the bat for such a long post to a dead forum. Found this forum while trying to decide on whether or not get a few books graded that I got off of eBay and at a local comic shop for my son. He's 5, and twice a month we visit the shop and he gets to fill up his box with books (makes him feel like a big boy). I picked up a few books that I'd like him to have when he's a bit older and a bit more responsible. I figured I'd also try and make them sort of an investment for him.
Now I read the entire 21 pages here, and haha, I'm still on the fence as to if I should get them graded or not. Nothing really expensive. Just some Wolverine Origins and Origin I and II variants. He loves Wolverine like his daddy does.
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?


In my personal opinion if most of the books are from the 90's up and not The Walking Dead #1-10 it is really not worth getting the books graded if your intention is to never sell them. 99% of what you buy today is going to appreciate very slowly. Very few of that other 1% is going to exceed $1000 in value. The chances that you will end out with a majority collection comprised of this fraction of the one percent or the one percent is slim. Thus spending big money to preserve your books by grading them is pure lunacy. Not to mention you are placing faith in CGC graded book continuing to carry premiums. Right now things may look good but their system is built on very wobbly legs and given the right circumstances those legs could give out and all those dollars spent will be lost.

Remember though this is just my opinion.
By Michael923 - 10 Months Ago
One thing I'm surprised Ox didn't touch on is the fact that if you want to preserve the book without the major cost and possible distrust of CGC, PGX, or either of the other two grading companies the next best (and in some opinions the very best) way would be to buy Mylar bags, 2.0 or 4.0 and E. Gerber Full Back Boards. These can last longer than the shells that CGC uses as every decade or so you are supposed to send them back in for reslabbing. And if you want these for display, they will take much less room than the cases.
By Kitdog - 10 Months Ago
J. Howlett (1/29/2014)
Hi, everybody. New guy here, and I apologize off the bat for such a long post to a dead forum. Found this forum while trying to decide on whether or not get a few books graded that I got off of eBay and at a local comic shop for my son. He's 5, and twice a month we visit the shop and he gets to fill up his box with books (makes him feel like a big boy). I picked up a few books that I'd like him to have when he's a bit older and a bit more responsible. I figured I'd also try and make them sort of an investment for him.
Now I read the entire 21 pages here, and haha, I'm still on the fence as to if I should get them graded or not. Nothing really expensive. Just some Wolverine Origins and Origin I and II variants. He loves Wolverine like his daddy does.
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?


I have to agree with OX in this, there is no way to know that a book they graded may be valuable in the long run, they may well go defunct or some company may open and do proper grading and make CGC another pgx in collectors eyes. For the long run for books you see that may become valuable like Michael said is mylar from E Gerber. I use mylites 2 and 1/2 backs both in standard size for all my best books. They will not need to be changed until your son is like 90! There is no risk of one company or another tanking or something coming along that makes them less desirable.
By gilgandra - 10 Months Ago
Yes I agree with what has been said, CGC is a hot craze now but when it's all said & done how can one read or smell view the art. Any modern books you buy (90s onwards) you'll have to do your research to sort through the crap for investments. they are about & fairly cheap to, Bronze age (1970 - 1985) is a good start for investment books for your son.

ASM #298 - 300

ASM #360 - 361

X-Factor#5 - 6

Special Marvel Edition #15 - 16

Batman Adventures #12

UXM #129, #266

Avengers Annual #10

These are just a few good examples of affordable investment books for the future (some are worth a Hundred now, & lot more in years to comeSmile), They won't be worth Thousands but they are highly sort after.

CGC them if you like, they will be well protected. costs a lot & like Micheal923 said the cases won't last forever, put them in a Bag/backing board & forget about them. Raw books are more desirable anyway, especially in the future when you can interact with book as we do now with Golden & Silver age comics.

I'm sure you'll do what's best, I'm a fan of older books been CGC'd (they need to be preserved) but not newer books. there're printed on better paper & made to last the time. My opinion of course.

-gilgandra
By Crispy Duck - 10 Months Ago
gilgandra (1/30/2014)
Yes I agree with what has been said, CGC is a hot craze now...

CGC and PGX serve a meaningful function... when used correctly and with the sort of restraint you'd expect from collectors who respect the hobby.

Rehash of my oldest material here, but CGC/PGX/Vault/Whatever are neither a fad nor a bad thing. They're third party grading services. The only power they have in the industry is whatever has been assigned to them by collectors. Some collectors are merchants at heart, and they will always seek to exploit available means of boosting profit margins. In what has become a big business in of itself (the secondary market for comic books), they will leverage everything including perceived "justifiable" graded value in order to maximize their gains. And, of course, the end owner (far too often someone who is simply attracted to graded books for whatever reason) is the party paying the highest price.

CGC and its ilk are, however, a practical solution for big ticket books. Plain and simple, they are good options for high end comic book capitalists, signature junkies and people unwilling to shell out big bucks without professional restoration and qualification checks. For the rest of the hobby (and for the vast, vast, vast majority of comic books), they make no sense at all. Star Wars #13 in 9.6... CGC... $19 and not a single stinking bid. And there's a damn good reason for that, which should be apparent to anyone.

J Howlett (1/30/2014)
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?

It's clear that what you're looking for is a generational bridge with your son; something you can get for him that he will appreciate in the future, not just for its material value, but for what it represents to him, which is memories of comic books and his father. If you want to go that route, do him a big favor... don't spend all that money slabbing books that (and other posters have correctly pointed out) won't work as investments. Instead, save up (or set aside the money) for something really cool. You said he likes Wolverine? Buy CGC, PGX or raw copies of Hulk 180 and 181. Mid grade issues are still fairly affordable. Or perhaps even Wolverine #1 (9/82). These are the sorts of showpieces for which slabs are thoroughly justifiable, again, since you mentioned that future value was a key component of this equation.

In the future, you can take him to cons, let him get his other favorite issues signed, and sub them to CGC Signature Series. Now THAT is something fun you'll be able to do together that involves CGC. Other than that, you're kinda wasting that money on CGC slabs for low value moderns.
By gilgandra - 10 Months Ago
(I'm sure you'll do what's best, I'm a fan of older books been CGC'd (they need to be preserved) but not newer books. there're printed on better paper & made to last the time. My opinion of course.)




Cheers for the support Crispy DuckSmile much appreciated.

-gilgandra
By reddwarf6662 - 10 Months Ago
Crispy Duck (1/30/2014)
gilgandra (1/30/2014)
Yes I agree with what has been said, CGC is a hot craze now...

CGC and PGX serve a meaningful function... when used correctly and with the sort of restraint you'd expect from collectors who respect the hobby.

Rehash of my oldest material here, but CGC/PGX/Vault/Whatever are neither a fad nor a bad thing. They're third party grading services. The only power they have in the industry is whatever has been assigned to them by collectors. Some collectors are merchants at heart, and they will always seek to exploit available means of boosting profit margins. In what has become a big business in of itself (the secondary market for comic books), they will leverage everything including perceived "justifiable" graded value in order to maximize their gains. And, of course, the end owner (far too often someone who is simply attracted to graded books for whatever reason) is the party paying the highest price.

CGC and its ilk are, however, a practical solution for big ticket books. Plain and simple, they are good options for high end comic book capitalists, signature junkies and people unwilling to shell out big bucks without professional restoration and qualification checks. For the rest of the hobby (and for the vast, vast, vast majority of comic books), they make no sense at all. Star Wars #13 in 9.6... CGC... $19 and not a single stinking bid. And there's a damn good reason for that, which should be apparent to anyone.

J Howlett (1/30/2014)
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?

It's clear that what you're looking for a metaphorical generational bridge with your son; something you can get for him that he will appreciate in the future, not just for its material value, but for what it represents to him, which is memories of comic books and his father. If you want to go that route, do him a big favor... don't spend all that money slabbing books that (and other posters have correctly pointed out) won't work as investments. Instead, save up (or set aside the money) for something really cool. You said he likes Wolverine? Buy CGC, PGX or raw copies of Hulk 180 and 181. Mid grade issues are still fairly affordable. Or perhaps even Wolverine #1 (9/82). These are the sorts of showpieces for which slabs are thoroughly justifiable, again, since you mentioned that future value was a key component of this equation.

In the future, you can take him to cons, let him get his other favorite issues signed, and sub them to CGC Signature Series. Now THAT is something fun you'll be able to do together that involves CGC. Other than that, you're kinda wasting that money on CGC slabs for low value moderns.

I have to agree with Crispy here. CGC serves my autograph needs on comics, but from what I am reading from your original post J.Howlett its not worth it. These are fairly common issues I can walk in any shop and find on the comic wall available to buy. Unless its for autograph, rare comic, or a comic that has been restored don't buy it. Mylites will do you nicely.
Save your money and put it towards key Wolvie books if that is what you and your son enjoy. I'll even give you a list in my book for Wolvie worth going for.
1. Hulk 180/181
2. Giant - Size X-Men #1 - first appearance with X-Men
3. X-Men #94 - First appearance on main X-Men title
4. X-Men 141 - Days of Future Past
5. X-Men 133 - First Solo Story
6. Wolverine #1 9/82
7. The Legend of DarkClaw #1
By 44_mag_de - 10 Months Ago
reddwarf6662 (1/30/2014)
Crispy Duck (1/30/2014)
gilgandra (1/30/2014)
Yes I agree with what has been said, CGC is a hot craze now...

CGC and PGX serve a meaningful function... when used correctly and with the sort of restraint you'd expect from collectors who respect the hobby.

Rehash of my oldest material here, but CGC/PGX/Vault/Whatever are neither a fad nor a bad thing. They're third party grading services. The only power they have in the industry is whatever has been assigned to them by collectors. Some collectors are merchants at heart, and they will always seek to exploit available means of boosting profit margins. In what has become a big business in of itself (the secondary market for comic books), they will leverage everything including perceived "justifiable" graded value in order to maximize their gains. And, of course, the end owner (far too often someone who is simply attracted to graded books for whatever reason) is the party paying the highest price.

CGC and its ilk are, however, a practical solution for big ticket books. Plain and simple, they are good options for high end comic book capitalists, signature junkies and people unwilling to shell out big bucks without professional restoration and qualification checks. For the rest of the hobby (and for the vast, vast, vast majority of comic books), they make no sense at all. Star Wars #13 in 9.6... CGC... $19 and not a single stinking bid. And there's a damn good reason for that, which should be apparent to anyone.

J Howlett (1/30/2014)
I do have some other books that so happen to be CGC graded (bought em that way) tucked away for him. Was wondering if by what I read on here - because they're newer - should I bother to get them graded through CGC, PGX, or at all? I have collected books off and on for the better part of 30 years, but never in any kind of die hard manner. Waay too many other things going on. Now that my little guy and I have made this one of our things we do together when I have that little bit of time, I'd like to, as I said previously, maybe turn these into an investment for him for later on. Any thoughts?

It's clear that what you're looking for a metaphorical generational bridge with your son; something you can get for him that he will appreciate in the future, not just for its material value, but for what it represents to him, which is memories of comic books and his father. If you want to go that route, do him a big favor... don't spend all that money slabbing books that (and other posters have correctly pointed out) won't work as investments. Instead, save up (or set aside the money) for something really cool. You said he likes Wolverine? Buy CGC, PGX or raw copies of Hulk 180 and 181. Mid grade issues are still fairly affordable. Or perhaps even Wolverine #1 (9/82). These are the sorts of showpieces for which slabs are thoroughly justifiable, again, since you mentioned that future value was a key component of this equation.

In the future, you can take him to cons, let him get his other favorite issues signed, and sub them to CGC Signature Series. Now THAT is something fun you'll be able to do together that involves CGC. Other than that, you're kinda wasting that money on CGC slabs for low value moderns.

I have to agree with Crispy here. CGC serves my autograph needs on comics, but from what I am reading from your original post J.Howlett its not worth it. These are fairly common issues I can walk in any shop and find on the comic wall available to buy. Unless its for autograph, rare comic, or a comic that has been restored don't buy it. Mylites will do you nicely.
Save your money and put it towards key Wolvie books if that is what you and your son enjoy. I'll even give you a list in my book for Wolvie worth going for.
1. Hulk 180/181
2. Giant - Size X-Men #1 - first appearance with X-Men
3. X-Men #94 - First appearance on main X-Men title
4. X-Men 141 - Days of Future Past
5. X-Men 133 - First Solo Story
6. Wolverine #1 9/82
7. The Legend of DarkClaw #1


I agree with the above posters. Newer books aren't worth getting graded since there are so many out there in print and also the book will need to be a 9.8 to be worth it. The price difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 can sometimes be more than 1/2 of the value of the book and it could sometimes be better just to buy a pre-slabbed copy than to submit your own.


I'm glad the above list doesn't include the ridiculous newly found first appearance of "The Wolverine". There are three other books that I think should be included which are Hulk #340, Captain America Annual #8 and Daredevil #196. All are classic Wolverine covers.
By J. Howlett - 10 Months Ago
Hey, guys. Wow! Thanks to everyone for their input on this. I am going to go the bag and board route, as so many of you have suggested, and save myself the headache and wallet ache of grading for maybe that super rare book that may pop up.
Little guy has the 1982 mini-series hanging up on his wall next to his Power Rangers autographs. Haha.
As to the smell and feel aspect of reading comics, I'm glad someone mentioned that. In my humble opinion, part of the fun of collecting books has been opening them up and feeling the pages and smelling that old timey funk that you only get with a real tangible book.
Time and again it takes me back to my grandmother's dining room table when she would give me boxes of my uncle's old books to pour through on a Sunday afternoon. I think Hot Stuff and Lil' Jinx was the first book I read. Haha
Either way, I want him to experience that as well. And realistically, he won't be able to do that if everything's sealed up. So I guess the older or really rare ones as I said, will be relegated to sealing if I can even afford that. And to have them re sealed and graded again every 10 years doesn't seem feasible.
So....... Mylite/Mylar it will be. Haha. Thanks again guys. This is a fun place to visit, and obviously a well of knowledge that I will continue to closely monitor.
Now, back to actually locking up bad guys. Mehh... Or lunch...
By oxbladder - 10 Months Ago
Just an FYI. You never want your book to have an acidic or musty smell. Both are indicators that your paper quality is going bad and that your storage environment is not up to snuff.

I always chuckle when people talk about this as I like my books not smelling at all. Well as long as they smell like regular paper not rotting paper Smile
By VCBE - 2 days ago
HI on the quote it's a Great John Lennon quote... and on the CGC Vs. PGX and now CBCS (Ex-President of CGC) I honestly don't trust any of them and writing is on the wall that things as not done on a level base... Very easy to look into the company and see the bias grading they have done...
By VIllage Idiot! - 2 days ago
VCBE (11/20/2014)
HI on the quote it's a Great John Lennon quote... and on the CGC Vs. PGX and now CBCS (Ex-President of CGC) I honestly don't trust any of them and writing is on the wall that things as not done on a level base... Very easy to look into the company and see the bias grading they have done...



WTF are you rambling on about? Advice for you...if you think higher education is expensive? try ignorance!
By DemonoidTentacle - 2 days ago
VIllage Idiot! (11/20/2014)
VCBE (11/20/2014)
HI on the quote it's a Great John Lennon quote... and on the CGC Vs. PGX and now CBCS (Ex-President of CGC) I honestly don't trust any of them and writing is on the wall that things as not done on a level base... Very easy to look into the company and see the bias grading they have done...



WTF are you rambling on about? Advice for you...if you think higher education is expensive? try ignorance!


The quote VCBE is talking about was from the signature of a post made two years ago which was the topic starter.

To translate the rest of what VCBE is saying, it's something along the lines of "On the topic of the CGC Vs. PGX, and now CBCS debate, I honestly don't trust any of them. The writing is on the wall that things are not done on a level base. It's very easy to look into the company and see the bias grading they have done."

It's also worth remembering that not everyone on this forum has english as their first language.
By oxbladder - 2 days ago
VCBE (11/20/2014)
HI on the quote it's a Great John Lennon quote... and on the CGC Vs. PGX and now CBCS (Ex-President of CGC) I honestly don't trust any of them and writing is on the wall that things as not done on a level base... Very easy to look into the company and see the bias grading they have done...


Another one of those conspiracy theorists, I see.

By head-rush - Yesterday
That's probably Eastbay with a different name😜
By DeadOne - Yesterday
head-rush (11/22/2014)
That's probably Eastbay with a different name😜

VCBE could stand for Vault Comics' Boy Eastbay Laugh